BowlingFans.com, The site for the fans, by the fans....
Sponsored Links




ChatBox:

Sponsored Links


Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#5735 - 09/14/04 12:54 AM Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Grim Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 58
A/S/L: 24/M/Newcastle Australia
Can someone explain to me the various handicap systems that are used, including the advantages/disadvantages of each and what sort of situation they would be most appropriate in?

My league uses a 75% of 200 system and there have been some complaints. The team I am in consists of three of the highest 4 averages and over the last 2 league seasons, we have dominated the league. Our averages are all in the 170's. Is the handicap system in place giving us an unfair advantage or are the whiners unjustified in their complaints?

Another complaint lodged recently is over the scoring system. We are in three person teams and the league consists of 8 teams. We play 5 rounds for a total of 35 weeks of bowling. Three games per week. The scoring system awards 2 points for each game won and 1 point for an overall win for a possible 7 points. There is also a 1 point per 100 pins awarded as well. It is this "bonus point" that quite a few people have been complaining about. I was lead to believe that this bonus point included handicap but the complaints have stated otherwise. Of course, if it is just awarded on scratch then my team with an average of ~520 has an advantage but I still believe it is on handicap scores.

Is this a common scoring system?

Top
#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links Online   content
Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
Top
#5736 - 09/14/04 01:41 AM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Well, 75% is not really that much to balance the scales. Plus it depends on if you are handicappin by individual averages or team averages. However, as long as you have no one ove 200, you can fairly handicap to that cap. Most leagues now a days are handicapping 85 - 90%. I am not in favor of handicapping 100%. Reason being that 100% gives absolutely no incentive for lower average bowlers to get better. A 170 - 200 bowler has some years of experience, probably a contemporary reactive ball or two, taken some lessons, and practises during the week. They deserve some advantage, compared to the 100 - 130 average bowler that just goes down to throw a ball, drink and socialize.

Put it up for a vote, Try one season at 90% and you'll see if it evens the playing field. :-)

Erin

Top
#5737 - 09/14/04 04:00 AM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
The WIBC has been studying handicapping since the 1970's. They have 30 years into analyzing the outcome of different handicapping methods.

The rules of the the game indicate that handicapping is to be conducted in a fashion that puts the differing talents of the bowlers on equitable terms.

That is to say that the lower average bowlers have the same chance at winning the first place prize as the higher average bowlers.

What the WIBC has discovered, through their years of statistical analysis, is that for this to occur in reality, it requires a handicap of 116%.

The reason being, is that it is easier for a higher average bowler to overcome the hardships of changing lane conditions, and to take their game to a more focused level than it is for a lower average bowler. So even at 100%, the higher average bowlers will win first place more often.

In your described handicap scenario, the most any one can achieve is 75% of the difference between their average and 200, added to their score. So to acheive a score of 200 they have to bowl at 125% of their normal game. If you have anyone with an average above 200, they will never be beaten under normal circumstances. (excluding extreme luck)

If you take any group of bowlers, and add their averages together, then combine their handicap pins, and add to that total, you have the statistical score of any game they play. If you do this with a team of higher average bowlers, and a team of lower average bowlers, you will find that statistically, the lower average bowlers have no chance of winning. The lower that percentile is, the less the chance of a lower average bowler winning.

Now this doesn't account for the occasionally lucky game where a 130 bowler throws a 250 game. This single argument is the one most used, when arguing for a low handicap percentage. It is also the most ludicrous because the bowers average includes those lucky games into its statistics.

The second thing is the top number that you handicap from. It should be set as a number equal to the highest average on the league or above. The reason being is this.

If I bowl on the average of 230 pins, and the league has a handicap set at 200 pins. I have a gaurantee of a thirty pin advantage over you on any given day. If you bowl your average + 75% and I just bowl my average, I'll not only eat up your handicap but a portion of the handicap of another player on your team as well. Does that make sense?

Lets say you average 170 + 75% of the 30 pins difference to 200. Thats a 192 to my 230, I have canceled you out, plus I have contributed another 38 pins over your score to my teams total. Are those 38 pins going to be made up by someone else on your team? Not if they are up against other good bowlers on my team. The same thing will happen to them, that happened to you.

You would have to bowl three games at 208, and hope I don't bowl over my average, just to tie me. But I'll tell you, if the lanes are favoring you bowling well, they should be a cakewalk for me.

Erin brings up a good point, people will rise to the challenge they face. If you give it to them, they won't work for it. It is the ONLY legitimate argument in handicapping.

My personal experience has shown me that the common place where the whining stops, on both sides of the argument, is 90 percent of either the highest avereage on the league, or a number above the highest average on the league. Then everyone is handicapped with something.

On your points system, I have to say that I think it is a bit odd. The 2 points per game and 1 for total is common, and it is believed to avoid ties. However I have witnessed teams tie under that system just the same as others. 1 point per game and 1 point for total pins is also common.

In a match point system, points are awarded per bowler in direct opposition to the bower they play against on the other team. Then it is usually 1 point for each individual win, plus an amount for game win. Many of these are on a 24 point system, where if you have 4 man teams, you can win 4 points for the individuals and another 4 for the game, applied to the three games played. So 8 possible per game 24 possible per set. No total pin points awarded.

I have not heard of this bonus point system you mentioned before. It seams redundant in the fact that total pins is already awarded points. If it is awarded off of scratch pins, the best bowlers are guaranteed a high place in the final count. If I bowl an average of 230 and you bowl 170, I will always get 2 additional points to your 1, that is hardly fair.

The trouble is, that this should be brought up and voted on, before league starts. Everyone needs to make their voices and opinions known, or be willing to live with it for 36 weeks. These unresolved surprises tend to break up, and destroy leagues. Personally I have found that the people who don't bother coming to the meetings, are usually the loudest complainers about the adopted rules.

Top
#5738 - 09/14/04 08:49 AM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Grim Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 58
A/S/L: 24/M/Newcastle Australia
Coach04,

I don't think I explained the point system well enough. It's a cumulative scoring system so if my team bowls 1870 handicap series over the three games, we get 18 points with a 70 pin carry over. The following week, we start with a 70 carry over, bowl an 1850 and that totals a 1920 for 19 points with a 20 pin carry over for the next week.

As far as I am aware, the scoring and handicap systems have been in place since the league started in the mid 70's. Obviously it's working on some level as it's one of the longest running leagues at my alley, surviving two changes of management smile But with the recent complaints, I thought it would be best to get some outside advice before tackling it within the league.

Thanks Coach04 and Erin. We have 9 weeks left till the end of this season and I might suggest to the league committee a change to 90% of 200 or something similar. Thanks again!

Top
#5739 - 09/14/04 12:12 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Hi Coach04

<<The reason being, is that it is easier for a higher average bowler to overcome the hardships of changing lane conditions, >>

I have to disagee with you on one aspect of this statement. Lower average bowlers, using house plastic balls, throwing down the middle are not really effected by changing lane conditions at all. Plus most HOUSE shots rarely change dramatically, that's why they're called HOUSE shots. Most high average HOUSE bowlers will not excell (shoot over average) if the shot is changed. While the plastic straight ball players do not have to adjust at all. Now given someone like you, yes, YOU will be able to adjust and excell, but you are not a HOUSE bowler.

Grim......another thing you can offer to the league is to split the season and try the 90% the first half. Then have a league meeting and vote to go back to the old percentage or stay at 90% for the remainder of the season.

As Coach04 says, Undoubtedly it will be those that do not, say they cannot attend the meeting that will complain the most. Plus if the 90% tightens the league up, you shouldn't be surprised to find the highest total average team complaining .

Erin

Top
#5740 - 09/14/04 01:28 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Comet Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 63
A/S/L: male/Canada
My friends and I just had our first ever league game last night. It was scary... we were told beforehand that new bowlers are welcome, and since it's the only league available, we joined. But last night judging from the people bowling there, we wonder whether we've entered the wrong place or what. We were up against a team with someone who finished with a 299 game... We were only given a 32 pt handicap... even if that's going to be adjusted later on, it's still not going to make us anywhere close to that...

I remember asking the question regarding how good should one be before joining a league. Now i can answer myself: Without at least >250 average, we won't stand any chance winning (at least for this particular league) >_<

Top
#5741 - 09/14/04 01:47 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Dick Offline
High Roller

Registered: 02/12/01
Posts: 311
A/S/L: Quarryville, Pa
Hi Comet. I don't know what handicap system you are using but I do know that a new bowler coming into a league can be a bit intimidated specially when there is a big score thrown at them. I doubt that there are that many big averages in your league. It just seems that way because you are new to it. My best advice is to hang in there, it will get better. First of all, in the beginning of the season everyone is establishing averages. Second, you are a new bowler so you were probably put in the system with some minimum average which is spelled out in the league rules. Once you have an established average your handicap will probably go up. Make sure you read the league rules so that you totally understand how the system works. Most of all have fun. As in anything else you do bowling is a learning experience. I've been learning for 45+ years and still have more to learn because of the changing equipment and lane conditions. That is what makes this game interesting.
_________________________
[censored] Alexander
USBC Bronze Level Coach

Top
#5742 - 09/14/04 04:20 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
petrinjak Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 81
A/S/L: 34/Male/Virginia
Comet,
I would say that 299 was not a typical game for the bowler that trew it. If I had to take a stab at a typical league average, I would say 160 to 170'ish. Granted there are competative leagues but even those you may see the averages around 200 or so, but certainly not 250. If people are averaging 250 they really need to be considering the pros. As [censored] said above you will probably see an increase in your handicap after the first 3 weeks or so...depending on the league rule. Then your scores when all is said and done will be competative. Hang in there.

Top
#5743 - 09/15/04 12:39 AM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
Erin,

>>I have to disagee with you on one aspect of this statement. Lower average bowlers, using house plastic balls, throwing down the middle are not really effected by changing lane conditions at all. Plus most HOUSE shots rarely change dramatically, that's why they're called HOUSE shots. Most high average HOUSE bowlers will not excell (shoot over average) if the shot is changed. While the plastic straight ball players do not have to adjust at all. Now given someone like you, yes, YOU will be able to adjust and excell, but you are not a HOUSE bowler. <<


I can take you to any house on the planet, and with a laser light after league play, show you the errors in this statement. There are dramatic changes in house shot oil patterns on all lanes, synthetic and wood. Throwbot has proven it to become an issue within ten shots on synthetics.

As far as low average bowlers and house equipment, all I can say is 30 years of study by the WIBC, does not agree with your conclusion.

If I can find the article, I'll post a link. I am not personally supporting any particular handicapping method, just referring to the outcome of the study. Personally I prefer scratch bowling.

Top
#5744 - 09/15/04 01:40 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
<<As far as low average bowlers and house equipment, all I can say is 30 years of study by the WIBC, does not agree with your conclusion.>>

I think I read that article. But I don't believe it. We are talking about the WIBC here. Have you ever been to a WIBC association meeting? Given any set of statistics for anything, I can guarantee that they are scewed to make a point in one direction or another depending on what advantage the people writing the article want to make. In this case, higher ups in WIBC, want to make sure that they and their leagues get as much possible handicap as they can, without doing the work, lessons and practise to get better and thus not need more handicap.

As for the house shots. Yes the shot changes throughout a day, but not for a league set. Maybe I should have clariied that. If it ever does there's a din set up by the higher average bowlers that you will not hear quiet down until the shot is retuned to what they conside "normal". Why?? because they cannot very well adapt,adjust and excell, when the shot is not familiar to them. Lanes are oiled pretty much the same week after week. If you are second squad then your shot is still the same given the play that's already been on it. I consider a dramatic change as needing to move 10 or so boards over 3 games. On synthetics during league , even second set, I rarely have to move more then 3 a set.

The reason people use plastic balls for spare conversions is because the ball takes the oil pattern out of the situation. If you are used to using that ball or similar for all your shots, then oil changes and transistions will not effect you. Thus a 100 - 140 average bowler, using house and plastic balls, will not be effected hardly at all by any oil pattern change.

Erin

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >



Moderator:  Angel, Community Manager 
Savings That Support BowlingCommunity.com
We need your help!
Rather than begging for donations we're asking you to do one simple thing to help keep these forums running smooth:
When shopping for anything on Amazon.com or eBay please use these links to go to the web sites.

This won't cost you a cent!
You'll still get the exact same low prices, deals and free or low cost shipping; it doesn't change anything for you at all! The items do not have to be bowling related; all purchases made through these links help us! Amazon.com and eBay will pay us a small commission for every sale and it's helping us cover the expenses.

BowlingCommunity.com Recent Posts
Quitting my League
by Mkirchie - Yesterday at 10:19 PM
Terms Of Use
Use of this community signifies your agreement to the Community Standards and Conditions of Use.

About BowlingFans.com | Contact Us | Advertise With Us | Site Map
Use of this website constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. | Material Connection Disclosure

Copyright © 1998 - 2020 - usrbingeek LLC | Copyright Policy
BowlingFans.com, BowlingFans, The Right Approach, Kegler's Connection, Tour411, BallBeat, BowlingCommunity.com, BowlSearch.com, and Bowling News You Can Use are trademarks of usrbingeek LLC. All other trademarks and tradenames are property of their respective owners.