Picture the weight block as a pencil with the pin being the eraser.

If you place the pin on the pap then the ball will rotate around the horizontal axis of the pencil and not flare at all. This is the lowest rg drilling for a ball.

1/4 of the circumference of the ball is 6 3/4" if you were to place the pin 6 3/4" from the pap the pin would run in the bowler's Track and the pencil would be straight up and down and revolving end over end this would cause the ball to also not flare and this would be the highest rg drilling for the ball. The difference being the lower Rg drilling will rev up the fastest, and the high rg drilling will go the longest, but neither will flare.

Flare is what causes the ball to roll over a fresh part of the coverstock if the ball doesn't flare then it will roll over the same part of the coverstock and Track oil down the lane having the ball flare and roll over a clean part of the coverstock creates more friction between the ball and the lane and creates earlier hook. To drill a ball for maximum flare you will place the pin 1/2 way to the Track or 3 3/8" from the pap. Pin distances longer than 3 3/8" go longer and hook harder pin distances shorter than 3 3/8 rev earlier and hook less.

Next the line from the Pap to the Negative axis point is called the vertical axis line. Placing the pin near the val causes the ball to react violently at the break point, placing the pin farther from the val causes the ball to expend it's energy over a longer period of the ball's motion.

Next mass bias placement, placing the mass bias closer to the pap makes the ball snap hardest on the back end, placing it farther up to 90 degrees will make the ball arc more on the back end. Balls that do not have a mass bias are called symmetrical and just have a marked center of gravity. The position of the center of gravity doesn't effect ball motion; however the placement of the weight hole does, so we place the cg in a position to cause a weight hole to be placed in the desired location to get the desired ball reaction.

Admin: +1 for pinning this or a similar thread to the top

Since it was asked in another post I will add my reply to explaining mass bias placement in ball layout here.

Shifting the mass bias closer to the pap makes the ball react quicker off the break point. Similar to putting the in closer to the vertical axis line or "above the fingers".

Shifting the mass bias closer to 90 degrees makes the ball react over a longer portion of the lane or "arc", similar to drilling the ball with the pin below the fingers.

Placing the mass bias farther than 90 degrees can have negative effects on the back end and can cause negative flare in some balls.

Symmetrical balls just because they have a long pin to cg measurement do not have an "implied mass bias" as the whole weight block is shifted in that direction, not just a part of the weight block, so you will not get the same reaction results. It has been proven that shifting the cg does not change the reaction of the ball unless it is shifted a ridiculous amount and would require a weight hole that would change the results anyway. What matters with symmetrical balls is weight hole or no weight hole and where to place the weight hole to get the desired results.

a very good article on drilling patterns was in this months issue of Bowling This Month.

Another interesting layout resource is Mo Pinel's Dual Angle layout system. The one site I know of that has a good writeup is a banned url, so just google "Mo Pinel Dual Angle". The first result should be good.

The article in BTM is a bit outdated, I would regard Mo Pinnel as more of an expert. His dual angle drilling system is the basis for my writings, which differs from the article in BTM.

For example placing the pin above the fingers doesn't make the ball go longer then placing it below the fingers. What happens when you place the pin above the fingers is the ball will expend more energy at the break point than a ball with the pin below the fingers that will continue to hook past the break point. So if you are leaving a bunch of weak 10 pins try a pin under fingers layout in a similar or same ball. The opposite is true as well, if you are leaving a bunch of solid back row spares to shoot at try a pin above the fingers drill in the same or similar type of ball.

There was a hotly debated thread earlier about Track flare. I am letting that one stay dead, but I just got off the phone with Brunswick, and I got some good info that belongs in this thread. I am also in touch with some other ball companies, and will post their answers as I get them. If you want to argue points, please rekindle that old thread, or start a new one and keep this one clean. Thank you.

The original question was "How does Track flare affect length and backend reaction?"

Please note that the during this conversation, neither he nor I ever brought up any aspect other than Track flare. Bowler, coverstock, core, lane condition, none of it. Tom at Brunswick and I had a very good conversation, and here are the contents of my notes:

• With the pin on the axis (PAP), the ball will not flare.
• With the pin 3 3/8", the ball will see the most flare (this is of the ball's potential)
  • Interesting side note, the ball needs to flare 5/16" per ring to get fresh surface on the lane.
• More flare leads to:
  • An earlier roll.
  • More friction.
  • Less back end. This is because the extra friction causes you to lose revs in the front part of the lane.
• He also said that a drilling with a pin distance of 5 1/16" will give the most length with the most back end potential. This requires a lot of revolutions though (I didn't write down the number, but I think he said 14-15).
  • 
    Note from my mouth, not his: that number will be condition specific. He probably gave me that number based on a typical house shot. It will also be release specific - a ton of revs isn't going to give a ball back end if it has no axis rotation.

If anyone has serious, non-abrasive follow-up questions, I can pass them along.

Great follow up Cgeorge, I have a few follow up questions if you don't mind asking:

1. Will a pin closer to the pap than 3 3/8" go longer than the 3 3/8" drilling? In my experience like I said it went longer with less back end, but also like I said it was a plugged ball and I don't trust any reaction I would have gotten from a plugged ball.

2. How much differential does a ball need to have to get 5/16" between flare rings.

3. Does drilling a pin distance longer than 5 1/16" from the pap make the ball go longer with a less jumpy backend, or does it just go longer with a more jumpy back end? I personally have not had a 6" pin to pap distance ball to compare since I mostly bowl on a house shot that has enough oil in the middle for a dry lane ball like an ice or bash, but if I did I would think it might go long then stand up, more than jump, and the pin axis drilling will go long then lay down.

All of this, except where noted by "I assume," etc., is from the Brunswick rep.



The 5 1/16" drilling he mentioned is apparently a half-leverage drilling - it's halfway between the 3 3/8" and 6 3/4". The similar drilling on the other side is 1 11/16" from the PAP. It would exhibit the same distance between flare rings, and have similar length to the 5 1/16" drilling. The difference is, the short pin distance would get into a roll earlier (lower RG), and the longer pin distance would skid more (higher RG). The difference wouldn't really be noticeable without using a CATS-type system. Both would go longer than 3 3/8".



I didn't get a number. He confirmed that the separation of rings is the same for a low rev player vs. a high rev player, but also said that higher rev players are able get more out of it... I am assuming he meant more total flare from potential of the drilling. The tangent to this one is that when they first started doing differential balls, they kept them very high - .05 or higher even. This way, even if the driller missed on the drilling by an inch, lower-rev bowlers could still see plenty of flare and separation. Then they started going down a little lower, especially because their pro staff had such rev rates that with a high diff ball, they couldn't really drill the flare out of it without killing the reaction. In the .03-.04 range, from what I gathered, you have a good combination of being able to drill leverage for lower-rev players, and lower flare drillings for higher rev players.



Going past 5 1/16" will bring hand position much more into play. If you release with 90 degrees of rotation, you'll see more backend. If you release with 45, you'll see less. If you go up the back of the ball, it will not move much at all.

First, let me thank you for all of the info.



What he means is that the low rev player and high rev player will each have the same distance between the flare rings if they each used the same ball, just the high rev player will have more rings and a wider flare pattern, but the same distance between rings.



The USBC put a limit on differential at .06 that is why they lowered the differentials. You can still drill a high diff ball to flare less, that is why I was asking what differential was to flare 5/16". This is a significant number because anything less means the ball will Track more over the flare and skid farther because of the extra oil on the ball, and anything more would mean the ball is stronger and for heavy oil.

If let's say since we don't know the differential to get 5/16" of distance between flare rings, lets give it an arbatrary number since we know it is a medium differential, lets say .045. This means a ball drilled leverage at .060 will give you close to 7/16" or 1/8" more flare. So if you have a .060 ball and you want to drill the flare back to 5/16 because that is what works best for you, then all you have to do is drill the ball 1/4 of the distance from 3 3/8, to 6 3/4 or 0 and drill the ball with the pin 4 1/4" from the pap and you will cut the flare back to where it matches a leverage drilled .045 diff ball. Remember .06 is the max differential at the leverage point and goes back to zero at the pap and 6 3/4" from the pap.

I guess he will not tell you the diff number because it is a trade secret.

To add to this since I have a ball with a 6" pin, I can say that this is what I see happen. Your flare rings are pretty much on top of one another. The small distance where there is a space between them, the space is less than the oil ring itself.

What would recommend for strokers with low ball speeds?

Besides lessons to improve your ball speed, and rev rate, I need more info to give me an idea as to what lane conditions you need the ball for.

House shot, medium-light oil.

What's wrong with the black widow pearl you have now?

I have a Black Widow with the pin drilled over the middle finger, and the ball still flares about 4-5 inches. Could this just be from the Black Widow having .06 of differential?

Is there a weight hole in the ball?

Nope 3/8 side 3/8 finger

If you have a lower Track, then the pin over the middle fingers is probably more like 5" than 6" that is why it still flares so much.

This is why it is important to measure ball layouts from the pap instead of from where the pin is on your grip. If you measure from the pap you will be able to match your ball reaction better to what you want.

Nothing is wrong with the pearl, but the ball was drilled conventional pin (45 degrees) and not from PAP. The driller told me that I can do more with the ball from my release. I also had asked for one with top weight 3 and pin 2-3, instead he sold me the one he had on stock with top weight 2 and pin 1-2. My original choice was the Ebonite Bash or Clash, but he said it's better to go for a high performance ball. I've really enriched my knowledge of the sport because of this site. I'm going to check out Erin's x bro in law Bud at Homestead or Skip at Cambrian. I was trying to get a basic idea of the layout for my next ball. I wanted to know what pin layout (pin above or below fingers) is recommended for a stroker with low revs on a house shot with medium-light oil.

Normally on all my other bowling balls i have a high Track about an inch left of the middle finger and is slightly inverted

Well the person whose Track is right next to the finger holes would have a 6" pin to pap distance and you would have a 5" pin to pap distance and thus get more flare, we are only talking about 1" making that much of a difference and it does. I meant lower Track than someone with a higher Track than yourself, not a spinner type Track.

This is why you can't judge a drilling by where the pin is located, you have to measure from the pap. One of the guys I bowl with, he has a pin over the bridge and it is a leverage drilling for him because he has a low Track. For you the pin would be next to the ring finger for the same drilling, for me that would be 4 1/2" from my pap because my Track is higher than yours.

I like this site, breaks it down very well:

http://www.morichbowling.com/MosCorner/DualAngleSeminar/DualAngleSeminar.htm

The PAP is used for laying out the ball - unless you are standing there with the pencil doing the layout, you don't need to know it. That said, I would be most higher level bowlers know their PAP.

I think that a lot of drillers, especially if they don't know you well, will assume that you are like most people, and know little to nothing about equipment. Over half of the people in my last league would sand their ball to get more hook, over and over, even though their ball was overhooking, leaving splits and rolling out. I went to the Pro Shop in the center to have my Big One polished. "Wait, polish?" Yeah, I would like it polished. "Are you sure?" Yes, take it to 1500 and polish, I want more length! "Ok..." He still didn't seem to want to do it.

I now have a good relationship with a different Pro Shop. He knows that I know a little, and most importantly, I know what I want. While he probably wouldn't let just anyone do it, on my last 2 balls, he let me lay them out, gave me feedback on making sure it was drillable (not drilling through half the pin, keeping the static weights legal), and punched it up for me. Would that happen if someone he didn't know had walked in? Probably not. I think that the importance of building a relationship with your pro-shop cannot be under-estimated.

[censored-bu], have you read MoRich's dual angle drilling system?

If not here it is: http://www.morichbowling.com/MosCorner/DualAngleSeminar/DualAngleSeminar.htm

The fingers have nothing to do with it. It's angle between the Pin-MB line and the Pin-PAP line. It's all in the link that has been posted twice now.

Good info here thanks for the links

Just to clarify a few terms:

PSA = Preferred Spin Axis. When any ball is thrown the Track will migrate until the ball is revolving around the PSA. The PSA and Mass Bias are the same thing Mass Bias is a Mo Pinel term, since he invented it he can call it what ever he likes. The faster the ball migrates to the PSA, the stronger the Mass Bias of the ball. Symmetrical balls don't have a mass bias no matter how far the cg is away from the pin, the ball will never spin out to a psa.

VAL = Vertical Axis Line. this is the line from the positive axis point (PAP) and the Negative Axis Point. The distance the pin is from this line determines how much energy the ball expends when it encounters friction. The closer the pin is to the val the more quickly the ball will give up it's energy when it encounters friction.

PAP = Positive Axis Point. The PAP is the point the ball revolves around on it's first rotation off your hand. After the first rotation, this point migrates to the PSA.

Many of the reaction characteristics of static weights described on Jeff's old ball reaction page that you posted earlier are not relevant any more. Static weights have been proven to have little to no affect on ball motion. Variables in drillings that affect ball motion:

1. Core Strength is determined by:
a. RG = Radius of Gyration which determines how fast the ball will rotate. The RG is measured by the distance away from the center of the ball to the outer mass of the core as it rotates. RG is the distance the spinning figure skater's arms are from the center of the skater. The closer the arms get to the skater, the faster the skater spins. The lower the RG the closer the outer mass of the core spins to the center of the core.
b. Differential = The difference from the rg measured with the pin at the pap and 6 3/4" away from the pap. The larger the difference, the more the ball will flare.

2. Distance from the pin to the pap. The closer the pin is to the pap the lower the rg of the ball.

3. Distance from the pin to the val.

4. Distance from the mass bias to the pap. The closer the mass bias is to the pap the quicker the ball uses it's energy when it encounters friction.

5. Weight Hole placement.

What don't you understand about the dual angle system, I thought it was very well explained?

The type of ball depends on the type of bowler and the line being played. Tommy Jones would use a different type of ball than Walter Ray who would use a different type of ball than, Danny Wiseman.

The drilling pattern for a long oil pattern of over 48 ft would have low angle numbers if you look at the chart in the dual angle system you would want the ball to lose it's energy as soon as it encounters dry so the ball has a chance to get into a good roll before it hits the pocket. So you would want the pin to be close to the val and the mass bias to be close to the pap with a weight hole on the mass bias. You would want a strong drilling at first until the oil broke down, then you would quickly switch to a weak drilling in the same ball or similar ball. Once the pattern broke down farther you would use a medium pearl ball with a lower pin and mb farther from the pap to play the worn area in the pattern.

Long patterns of 48' or more are played to break point zone 3 between the 10 board and 15 board depending on the length of the pattern. Straighter players sometimes have luck pointing the ball off the gutter and play a direct line to the break point/pocket. A fall back shot also can provide decent scoring where the ball is started on the Brooklyn side of the head pin and the oil drifts the ball back into the pocket, it sometimes helps to envision shooting the 5-9 spare (5-8 for lefties) when playing this line because the ball hooks so little it helps to keep your perspective if you think spare shot.

For short patterns you would want the opposite, you want the ball to store as much energy for as long as possible that way the ball doesn't roll out before hitting the pocket. So you would use higher angles, meaning pin farther from the val and mb farther from the pap. Stronger patterns are used to prevent jumpy ball reaction on fresh oil, once the pattern breaks down longer pin to pap distances in weaker equipment are used. Stronger balls burn quicker and prevent high rev shots from jumping on the nose which is why you see high rev players like TJ using the NVD on the cheetah.

Short patterns require the ball to be played from break point zone 1 (between the gutter and 5 board). Since you are looking at 23 feet or more of dry boards between the end of the pattern and the pocket, you need to give the ball enough room to hook and enough speed to prevent it from burning out.

Let me know if you have any more questions, I will try my best to help you understand.

New: The MoRich double thumb technique: http://www.morichbowling.com/MosCorner/DoubleThumbDrilling/DoubleThumbDrilling.htm

This is used for figuring out what your maximum hook drilling angle would be on your next ball, not altering an existing ball, although it may coincidentally be one and the same for you.

The Dual thumb technique finds your optimum mass bias angle for max hook by taking an existing ball and measuring 30 degrees from the vertical axis line (line from positive axis point to negative axis point) and measuring 4" up from the pap on this line then making another line to 1/2" to the right of the thumb (left of the thumb for lefties) then figure the angle made between these two lines. If the angle for instance comes out to be 60 degrees, then your maximum hook mass bias angle would be 60 degrees from your pap. Since 60 degrees puts the mb too close to the thumb for a max hook weight hole Mo suggests drilling a weight hole 1 1/2" away from the center of the thumb, pitched 3/4" right (left for lefties) no bigger than 1 1/8" in diameter for usbc regs.

Jim; Well explained. I have been in the Pro Shop industry for over 15 years and can say you know your S#it.. Since this is a BASIC layout thread the only thing I can add is that the distance of the MB has to change in layout depending on the strenght of the MB or Intermediant Diff. (sp?) example the Virtual gravity. if you close the angle down like u might on a regular ball with less InDiff you wont get the radical motion that the ball has to offer.. I drill all VG's with 60deg. or more unless the customer wants less reaction. the strenght of the InDiff is very important too...

Corey I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, are you saying that if you are trying to match another ball's reaction to the vg then you need to compensate for the mb diff by altering the mb angle?

From Mo's Dual angle system he says that smaller angles cause the ball to use more energy at the break point, larger angles cause the ball to spread the ball's energy over a longer distance.

From my own experience, drillings only make a difference when, comparing the same ball. Meaning if I have a vg drilled with a 60 degree mb and another with a 25 degree mb then the 25 degree will burn more energy before hitting the pins than the 60.

If you are comparing a 60 degree vg vs a 25 degree uprising then the vg will still burn more energy before it hits the pins, because the overall design of the balls are so different the design characteristics will be a larger factor in ball motion than the drilling.

Well how I see it is the varying InterDiff is getting to be as important as the pin distance to the PAP. I understand what Mo is saying, but if you took 2 ball with similar shells and surfaces (1 with a IntDiff of .014 and 1 with a .033) and you put the same layout on them they would reaction quite differently. The stronger the IntDiff gets the wider the angle needs to get. By saying you stick the the formula on the angles is saying you use the same pin distance for all balls no matter what the diff is. Let me know that you think..

Corey

What about symmetrical balls with no intermediate diff and the same coverstock?



Agreed because the ball with the .033 int. diff has a stronger core. Are you saying that you could drill the .014 diff ball to match the .033 layout ball?

What I'm saying is you need to take all of the ball's characteristics into consideration before laying the ball out, I never said I would layout every ball the same. I am also saying that intdiff angle is not as big of an influence on ball motion as pin to pap distance and pin to val angle.



How do you figure that? Every drilling has it's time and place to be used. I never said use the same pin to pap distance for every ball.

I know you never said that about the Pin distance... I was just using it as an example. And no you cant make a .014 react like a .033 just like a ball with a regular Diff of .030 and .050 with varying pin distances wouldnt react the same. But if you had two balls with similar shells and InterDiffs of .014 and .033 and your layout was the same they would react differently. My statment earlier about the VG's and laying them all out at 60 degrees is was a generalization. Most of them are around 60. I had a guy yesterday I sold one to and he strapped the ball hard. I drilled his 6"X80X45 and that ball rocked harder than most of the previous VG's I have ever seen. I threw it and it really defied most of the logic that I have understood about MB placements. This layout put the MB under and a tick left of the thumb and the pin around the middle finger. I have never seen more strenght and motion released off the spot EVER! so if varying the InterDiff isnt looked over atleast, you might not achieve the reaction one is looking for. Knowing this could make the difference in a customer that is happy and leaving ten pins or really excited about his flying scouting ten pin crushing new orb.

The Doc

Corey, that layout put the ball very near its highest RG point, which would have had a similar effect as using a longer pin distance with a lower drilling angle.

The low RG axis is generally around the pin, and high RG axis is 6 3/4" away from both MB and Pin. So, a ball with a 90* drilling and a 6 3/4" pin would put the high RG on the PAP. As you can see, your drilling was pretty close to that, so the ball was storing about as much energy as possible. Since the cover is strong enough to use that energy, you got the explosive reaction. On a weaker cover, that ball would probably not have gone through its hook phase fast enough.

Agreed

I have a question, I was wondering how to figure out how my virtual gravity was drilled. A lot of people talk about how they have (just an example) a 5" x 4" x etc. and I dont know how they figure that up so I was wondering how I do that and what each of those measurements mean. Thanks

If you see 20x5x45 hole on mb that means the pin is 20 degrees from the val x 5" from the pap with the mb 45 degrees from the pap and the hole on the mass bias.

Look at MoRich's dual angle drilling technique on www.morichbowling.com

MoRich lists the drilling angle first, the val angle second.

"... a 90°drilling, pin 5" from the PAP, 70° to the VAL"

I do not get this stuff...so is there a good driller anyone knows of in the OKC area? The guy who has done my recent work scares me. This was his response to my wanting a stronger drilling on my ball, which had the pin just above and between the fingers, "It really doesn't matter too much how you drill the ball, it is the coverstock that does most of the work." When I researched this drilling on the Hammer website, it said it was a weaker drilling for medium oil, but I bought the ball for heavy oil. He says if I want more hook, to just sand the ball with 400 grit. I do not know how much I trust this guy after reading this website, but he has been in business for over 25 years.

I have two new balls that need drilled. Who should do it? Do I just "pay my money and take my chances"?

Well, he is right. The coverstock (and bowler) combine for probably at least 80% of the reaction of a ball. Core is probably another 15%. Drilling would fill in the other 5. Tweaking the coverstock of a ball is a very good way to alter the reaction to make it do what you want, and anyone who doesn't experiment with different finishes is (IMO) holding themselves and their game back.

The drilling he gave you will usually be a good compromise between length and backend reaction. Since you don't say what ball it was, there's no way to tell if would be for heavy or medium oil - a drilling does not a heavy oil ball make.

That makes me feel a bit better, cgeorg. The ball was a Raw Hammer Pain and is for medium/heavy oil.

My next two balls are both MoRiches (Awesome Hook and Awesome Flip)and there are at least six different suggested patterns for these that seem relevant to me: three for "high Track" and three for "standard assymetrical". Should I just take the sheets and tell him what I want, or just assume he will pick the best one for my style? He knows how I bowl, and my style, speed and revs are very similar to his: high Track, semi-roller, medium/slow revs, medium speed. This is on lanes that are generally heavy, but occasionally medium.