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#49970 - 02/19/08 09:02 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: Timotheus]
GunsTariq Offline
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#49971 - 02/19/08 09:19 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: Timotheus]
Brian Longo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Timotheus
Disregarding my own personal opinions about Stone, he is learning more about the game week to week and does have an excitement about it that you can't really find in a lot of broadcasters nowadays.

How much of that excitement is real and not just and act, I don't know. I'm cynical about him because of the somewhat "mocking" and childish tone he has.

Originally Posted By: Timotheus
As for the hambone thing, I won't use it but if someone else wants to then that's their choice. The phrase does seem to be drawing in more fans which is good, but I hope those fans take the time to learn more about the game than just what they see on TV.

One word to sum up that last part of your statement there; "sheeple" . Sadly, that encompasses a large amount of people sucking up air in the world. However, that aside, more fans are good. You'll never hear me argue against that point, but hopefully not at the expense of "dumbing down the sport." If you remember, 10 years ago Fox tried little gimmicks to get new fans to hockey when they were broadcasting the games, like with that stupid "FoxTrax" glowing hockey puck. People who understood the sport (like me) hated the concept, and the players hated it as well, but laypeople who were new liked it. I wonder how many of those "new fans" Fox attracted are still fans of the game?

Originally Posted By: Timotheus
"Dutch 200" has its roots in "going Dutch" when you go out to eat or something. You split the bill down the middle 50/50, and a Dutch 200 is a 50/50 split of strike in one frame, spare in the next, strike, spare, strike, spare, etc.

Ah, yeah, didn't think about it that way. Of course, I didn't have too clear a head when I was writing that last night. I'll blame it on the medication. wink

Originally Posted By: Timotheus
Gone are the days when people learn about something or watch something because they're interested in it. Nowadays its all about whats "cool," and unfortunately bowling isn't "cool" because its not "sung" about in hip-hop songs or played in highlights on Sportscenter. But then again, the only things that are are football (which they put on a pedastal) and baseball (which they're dragging through the mud) and basketball (which is the only sport they actually cover the right way).

Well, as long as I've been alive, most people have never thought of bowling as "cool" or something that requires skill. Sure, any fat, beer-guzzling, grizzly bear looking guy in a wife-beater can chuck a ball down the lane and knock pins down, just like any fat, beer-guzzling, grizzly bear looking guy in shoulder pads can "get in the way" of a defensive lineman, but to be good, you have to work at it and skill doesn't grow on trees or explode out of a television. I can make a dazzling catch in my backyard. I can hit a 75 MPH lob 400 feet, and I can dunk a basketball on a 9 1/2' rim, but I sure won't claim it's easy after that and can't play the game at the same level professionals do. But then again, I'm not one of the "sheeple". I understand how difficult it is to be good at those sports and know I don't have those skills to compete with professionals. And if I don't understand something, I research it.

On a similar note, one of my favorite shows is "Pros vs. Joes" on SpikeTV. You get to see a bunch of "wannabes" and "I coulda been a pro in..." compete against former pros. It's so amusing to watch some idiot run his mouth only to get schooled by a former professional. Some of the pros "sandbag" (you can see it), but others will not allow some moron to show them up. And I think it's hilarious to see a "Joe" go on like he just made the best play in sports after he barely beat a Pro once...out of like 10 tries. Amazing. Yeah, I probably could've played pro baseball, but I didn't and I probably wouldn't have made it to the majors. I probably could've played college football, but I didn't, and most likely wouldn't have been drafted, either. Again, though, I appreciate the level of skill those guys have and the dedication it takes to get to that level.
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#49974 - 02/19/08 09:38 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: Brian Longo]
Timotheus Offline
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Golf was the same way...until Tiger came along. I always get into fights with my brother and dad about whether or not bowling is a sport. They always take the big fat guys and say "that just shows you that bowling isn't a sport" (though my dad does it more as a joke, my brother is more of a football hothead), but in reality bowling is as much a sport as football or baseball or basketball, and is in fact much older, but unlike those you don't necessarily have to be an "athlete" to do fairly well. However, the more athletic you are and the better shape you're in the better your potential upside is.

I haven't watched the Pros v. Joes show, but I've seen commercials and such for it. It looks like a good show, and it definitely gives you a clear view of the difference between a wannabe and a superstar.
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#49977 - 02/19/08 09:48 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: Brian Longo]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
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Originally Posted By: Brian Longo
Whether the phrase "turkey" is ridiculous or not is open to interpretation, and apparently your interpretation is pretty contradictory to the majority of bowlers, so I'll take what you have to say on that matter with a grain of salt.

How is it not ridiculous? What makes sense about calling 3 consecutive strikes a turkey?

Originally Posted By: Brian Longo
In my eyes, it has a historical reference; just as a 5-7-10 is called a "Sour Apple" (why, I don't know, but it is and always has been as long as I've been bowling) and a "Dutch 200" is what it is (why it's called that, I don't know as well - perhaps someone from Denmark threw it first and the name stuck). "Hambone" has no historical reference, just some stupid blabbermouth who decided to think of something "cute" to come after "turkey".

You say that 2 bowling terms you accept have no historical reference, and then bash hambone for having no historical reference.

I'm just going to put these 2 next to each other:
Originally Posted By: Brian Longo
Bad enough bowling has the stigma of fat, sweaty guys in a large, smoke-filled room drinking pitchers of beer, belching and showing off their "wife-beaters", now we need some idiot to tie something as ridiculous as "hambone" to our sport.

Originally Posted By: Brian Longo
And I never particularly cared for what "outsiders" thought of bowling or the "stigma" it carried. My way of thinking has always been, "You either like it or you don't. Either way, I don't give a rat's patootie what you think so keep your bodily fluids out of my Cheerios and you go find something else to do."


Originally Posted By: Brian Longo
Now, his "ten pin party in the pit" is cool, and actually pretty creative, since it doesn't lend itself to "naming a series of strikes". He can use that all day and it wouldn't bother me.


What is the difference between naming a single strike and naming a series of strikes? A strike has plenty of terms, a 4 bagger had none (aside from the generic 4 bagger, which is applied to any number of strikes). Can he rename anything that already has a name, and it's ok? What if he called a turkey something different? "He just turned the big three oh, thirty pins in a row!"
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#49980 - 02/19/08 10:04 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: cgeorg]
Timotheus Offline
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The term turkey actually originated from a Thanksgiving charity event back during the Depression. I forgot the exact details but either some bowling house or some charity organization held a bowling event and anyone that got three strikes in a row got a free turkey for Thanksgiving. That's how the term came into being and its stuck most likely due to its background.

"Dutch 200" does have historical significance, and its based on what I said in my previous post. I don't know where "Sour Apple" comes from for that leave, its not something I'd ever heard but maybe it just never came up.

There's not any real difference between naming a single strike v. a series of strikes. Anyone can make up any name they want for them, but bowling has a lot of purists (moreso than any other sport except probably baseball and golf) and if you try and force your terms on other people like many people feel Stone and ESPN/PBA are doing with hambone, you'll get a lot of ire directed your way. The big problem is that "hambone" is starting to work its way into the "official" bowling language and a lot of the most knowledgable bowling people are upset about that.
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#49981 - 02/19/08 10:08 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: cgeorg]
Dennis Michael Offline
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Registered: 12/11/05
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There is a lot to be said about the tradition of the game, and that tradition means something to a lot of bowlers. Fabricating names that have no meaning, by someone who, apparantly, knows little of this sport, makes a mockery of it. And, it shows the general feeling toward bowling as a second class sport.

Turkey - was a term given during the depression when bowling lanes would give away turkeys to people who rolled 3 strikes in a row. That has some meaning and tradition. It also shows how difficult it was in the old days to strike.

The terms Brooklyn and Jersey came from crossover strikes achieved by bowlers in NY as to whether thew were on the Brooklyn or Jersey side of the head pin.

These terms are part of the tradition of the sport, just like SouthPaw is to baseball. No one would ever come up with rightpaw in today's announcing. To baseball players and fans alike, it just makes NO sense, and shows the stupidity of an announcer, and his naivete.

Those who defend this position are doing the same.


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#49983 - 02/19/08 10:10 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: Dennis Michael]
Timotheus Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 446
A/S/L: 25/M/Syracuse, NY
Well after a quick bit of research, the term "sour Apple" for a 5-7-10 is in the bowling Glossary, so it has to have some historic significance, though I don't know where it originates.
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#49984 - 02/19/08 10:10 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: Dennis Michael]
Timotheus Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 446
A/S/L: 25/M/Syracuse, NY
Edit: somehow I double posted while only hitting the "Submit" button once confused


Edited by Timotheus (02/19/08 10:11 AM)
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#49985 - 02/19/08 10:17 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: cgeorg]
Brian Longo Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
Originally Posted By: cgeorg
How is it not ridiculous? What makes sense about calling 3 consecutive strikes a turkey?

Again, historical reference. Care to read about it?

Originally Posted By: cgeorg
You say that 2 bowling terms you accept have no historical reference, and then bash hambone for having no historical reference.

Historic in that those terms have been around longer than you or I. Some things I do not question. But Timotheus had a perfectly reasonable explanation for a "Dutch 200", and I accept that.

Originally Posted By: cgeorg
I'm just going to put these 2 next to each other:

*snip* I assume your point with those quotes was to show some sort of contradiction? Not so. I was merely pointing out what "the outsiders" thought of the sport and what I thought of the sport. I know what people think about it. I've heard it for eons. I really don't care what "John and Jane Doe" think about bowling, but that doesn't mean I don't shake my head in disagreement with it. Just because there are ignorant people in this world doesn't mean I have to sit quietly and allow them to continue to be ignorant without voicing my opinion. If people are allowed to throw negativity at bowling, then I'm just as entitled to say what I want to say.

Originally Posted By: cgeorg
What is the difference between naming a single strike and naming a series of strikes? A strike has plenty of terms, a 4 bagger had none (aside from the generic 4 bagger, which is applied to any number of strikes). Can he rename anything that already has a name, and it's ok? What if he called a turkey something different? "He just turned the big three oh, thirty pins in a row!"

Because he's not "naming a strike", that's why. It's a simple phrase, much like "swish strike", "messenger", "stone 10", "flat 10", "fast 8", etc. "Hambone" sounds like something he just pulled out of his hindside (and if he did in the literal sense, well, I won't even go there).

And what's wrong with a generic "4 bagger"? Again, adding color to something that doesn't need it. Does soccer (a sport he provides commentary on) have "cute little names" for 4 goals in a row? Does football have some nickname for 4 first downs in a row? Man, you can call anything whatever you like, but don't be surprised when certain purists, such as myself, disagree about it and call it idiotic.

From this point on, I'm happy to "agree to disagree".
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#49986 - 02/19/08 10:23 AM Re: You think Pete likes Stone? [Re: Dennis Michael]
Brian Longo Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
There is a lot to be said about the tradition of the game, and that tradition means something to a lot of bowlers. Fabricating names that have no meaning, by someone who, apparantly, knows little of this sport, makes a mockery of it. And, it shows the general feeling toward bowling as a second class sport.

These terms are part of the tradition of the sport, just like SouthPaw is to baseball. No one would ever come up with rightpaw in today's announcing. To baseball players and fans alike, it just makes NO sense, and shows the stupidity of an announcer, and his naivete.

Those who defend this position are doing the same.

Thank you, Dennis, for saying what I was trying to get at.

Sports that do not receive a lot of attention because they're not "easily understood" or "hip or cool" have a higher majority of purists because it is those same purists who keep the sport alive. Hockey is thick with tradition, and those "die hard fans and purists" keep hockey alive regardless of whether the "layman" believes the game it "too violent" or "boorish". They welcome "outsiders", and if you're willing to learn about the game, they'll take you in like family. But if you start coining phrases that have no meaning to the game, you'll be met with the same ferocity of a lion who had its meal taken out of its mouth.
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