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#48639 - 01/29/08 11:33 PM Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league
Smooth23 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 146
A/S/L: 23/M/Jackson, MI
Tonight I bowled my mixed league. I let it go for the night, but I wonder if I should question this or not. They were short someone, so they got a sub, which meant they were bowling with 4 guys and 1 girl. When I started on this league, as a sub, I was told they required 3 men and 2 women, or 3 women 2 men, to be a legal lineup. Does it not matter for subs, or how does that work? It really doesn't matter, I think we would have gotten slaughtered all 3 games anyhow tonight, but just want to know.
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#48643 - 01/29/08 11:42 PM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: Smooth23]
Brian Longo Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
If your league requires a 3:2 ratio, then the team you bowled broke the rules and should be required to forfeit their points to you since they bowled with an illegal lineup. If you're a sub, you can't upset the balance of the lineup rules - i.e., you cannot shift the ratio outside of what's expected. If you need a female sub to keep the ratio at 3 men, 2 women, then that's what you get. Likewise for men.

I would get on the phone and call the league's board to discuss this matter.
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#48647 - 01/30/08 12:05 AM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: Brian Longo]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
I'm with Brian on this, if the league rule says 3:2 ratio then with a sub it has to be that as well. I would get the ball rolling on this, no pun intended, and get this taken care of. The rules are there for a reason.
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#48650 - 01/30/08 12:09 AM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: Brian Longo]
Smooth23 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 146
A/S/L: 23/M/Jackson, MI
See, letting it go seemed like a good idea. Then I think of the fact that their female he was subbing for was a 120ish average- the sub stated 160 and bowled 180s all night.. our first to games might have had a different outcome without the change in handicaps/scores.
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#48651 - 01/30/08 12:15 AM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: Smooth23]
Brian Longo Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
Regardless of what the outcome of the scores might have been, the rule is as plain as day with a 3:2 ratio. The team deliberately broke the rule (even if they weren't "aware" of it, as the old saying goes, "ignorance of the law excuses no one"), thereby leaving any arguments from their side with no leg to stand on.

Seriously, contact your league officers and apprise them of the situation. Whether or not a league is "friendly", rules are rules, and if you don't abide by them, then you have to face the consequences. And, in my eyes, if you deliberately "cheat" or fail to observe the rules, then any punishment meted out is more than fair.
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#48653 - 01/30/08 12:41 AM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: Brian Longo]
Brandon510 Offline
Legend

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 1990
A/S/L: 28/Male/California/Philippines
Check your league rules. At every start of the league you should get outline of the rules of the league. If you dont have one ask you sectary and if it does state it 3:2 ratio. You see that you were not award a forfiet inform your league officers.
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#48655 - 01/30/08 01:05 AM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: Brandon510]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Yep, if the rules say you have to have so many ladies on the team and you didn't qualify, then they did not have a legal line up. They should forfeit games. You have 15 days to put a complaint in writing to the league officers. Then more then likely you'll have a league meeting about it.

Erin

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#48661 - 01/30/08 03:43 AM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: Atochabsh]
kagekikr Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 147
A/S/L: 34/M/Michigan
That's the nail on the head right there... IF... the league rules state that it must be a 3:2 ratio. You mentioned that that was what you were told when you were in fact a sub...so, yes, you SHOULD question it, and the first question should be "Could I please have a copy of the league rules?" Let us know what the outcome of this situation is...
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#48665 - 01/30/08 06:25 AM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: kagekikr]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 868
A/S/L: 39/M/New Jersey
My mixed league requires a 4:1 ratio of men to women. If you need a sub for the woman, you had better get a female sub because everyone in my league knows that. Then again, if you did that, your team would be all 5 men, which kind of defeats the purpose of the mixed league. I'd bring it up as soon as possible too.
Originally Posted By: Smooth23
See, letting it go seemed like a good idea. Then I think of the fact that their female he was subbing for was a 120ish average- the sub stated 160 and bowled 180s all night.. our first to games might have had a different outcome without the change in handicaps/scores.

I would not mention this when I call/contact league officials. Knowing it was wrong during the league night but not saying anything about it until after the fact says that you accepted the fact that they had an illegal lineup and now you want to change it because the outcome of your choice didn't work out. That will ruin your argument. I would play dumb and say that you realized their illegal lineup afterwards. Good luck.

Mark
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#48672 - 01/30/08 09:24 AM Re: Qs about opposing team sub in mixed league [Re: Mkirchie]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9808
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I don't know of any league that will accept a stated average to base handicap. It is either a sanction average. And, that can be looked up 24-7 by accessing the USBC web site. Or, the new bowler has to establish a league average by bowling a required minimum number of games. Both of my leagues require 9 games.

So, the handicap for the night is calculated after the person bowls for the night, and the handicap is refigured based on what he actually scored.

In any event, if the league rule state 2 women minimum, that is the rule. Really surprised an officer didn't see this while it was happening. It would not go unnoticed in any league I have bowled in.

Scores have been recalculated after they have been bowled to correct errors. This is not uncommon.
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