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#47242 - 01/08/08 10:44 AM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: Dennis Michael]
Timotheus Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 446
A/S/L: 25/M/Syracuse, NY
It does leave it open to interpretation, which is why I'd only let that happen on a 2 or 3 pin leave with the pins next to each other like a 1-3 or 3-6-10. Anything that had a gap or could have many situations where a leave is highly possible I would make sure the pin was replaced.

That is true, but the league isn't that serious where something like that is really worth squabbling about. Its USBC sanctioned sure, but its really just a company league, there aren't any PBA card holders or local pros or instructors that bowl in it. Rules are rules but sometimes its just not worth fighting over, and he's not a guy that does stuff like that all the time. I'm sort of defending him here but to me, given all the circumstances, its not a big deal. If it was a tournament or PBA sanctioned event, or a guy that is disrespectful and dishonest all the time then I'd definitely be making a stink about it.
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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#47265 - 01/08/08 12:56 PM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: Timotheus]
Odyssey912 Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 213
A/S/L: 32/F/Pittsburgh,PA
Some of these scenarios make me glad that we can review "last pin fall" when there is a question about the pin setter knocking pins down, etc. Causes a lot less arguments when you see it replayed rather than heresay.
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#47299 - 01/08/08 07:46 PM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: Odyssey912]
Brandon510 Offline
Legend

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 1990
A/S/L: 28/Male/California/Philippines
The bowler should of had the pin re-spotted. I have stopped people on there approach if i do see a pin missing. I have seen pin falls down and never have seen bowler not get it re spotted. I have never seen stopped anyone im not bowling against. But one of my friends will and he has - i have not see many challenge the decisions to re -spot or re-rack.
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#47312 - 01/08/08 10:44 PM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: Brandon510]
Silent Mike Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 998
A/S/L: 39/M/Poconos PA
People bowling against and with him saw it. He just acted like it didn't matter, this is a "fun" mixed league so MOST people aren't willing to get into it knowing his attitude. I'm not the type to get involved 3-4 lanes down but some comments he had directed at a team member's first 11 in a row series got our attention. From now on there will be extra eyes on that pair, if I see something it will be brought up.
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#49411 - 02/11/08 04:50 PM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: Timotheus]
Fin09 Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 1163
A/S/L: 53/M/Virginia Beach, VA
Originally Posted By: Timotheus
It does leave it open to interpretation, which is why I'd only let that happen on a 2 or 3 pin leave with the pins next to each other like a 1-3 or 3-6-10. Anything that had a gap or could have many situations where a leave is highly possible I would make sure the pin was replaced.

That is true, but the league isn't that serious where something like that is really worth squabbling about. Its USBC sanctioned sure, but its really just a company league, there aren't any PBA card holders or local pros or instructors that bowl in it. Rules are rules but sometimes its just not worth fighting over, and he's not a guy that does stuff like that all the time. I'm sort of defending him here but to me, given all the circumstances, its not a big deal. If it was a tournament or PBA sanctioned event, or a guy that is disrespectful and dishonest all the time then I'd definitely be making a stink about it.


Always have the pin respotted so the correct pins are standing. You never want to leave anything open to interpretation here.
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#49423 - 02/11/08 06:58 PM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: Fin09]
Smooth23 Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 146
A/S/L: 23/M/Jackson, MI
Heres a good question. What if you leave something like 2-6, but the 2 actually moves say, 5 boards right and remain standing(seen it happen), then the pinsetter knocks it down? If you were to have that re-spotted, you'd be at a disadvantage whereas if the pinsetter hadn't knocked it over..
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#49441 - 02/11/08 10:27 PM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: Smooth23]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
If the pin setter knocks it down it is to be placed where the pin originally was. So in your example it would be placed back in the two spot. Now had it slid into the 3 spot and was picked up you shoot at it as it sits. The pin is still considered the two. I've had the 7 slide into the 5 spot, and the 5 slide into the 7 spot and seen dozens of others.
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#49469 - 02/12/08 07:05 AM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: Timotheus]
kagekikr Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 147
A/S/L: 34/M/Michigan
Originally Posted By: Timotheus
It does leave it open to interpretation, which is why I'd only let that happen on a 2 or 3 pin leave with the pins next to each other like a 1-3 or 3-6-10. Anything that had a gap or could have many situations where a leave is highly possible I would make sure the pin was replaced.

That is true, but the league isn't that serious where something like that is really worth squabbling about. Its USBC sanctioned sure, but its really just a company league, there aren't any PBA card holders or local pros or instructors that bowl in it. Rules are rules but sometimes its just not worth fighting over, and he's not a guy that does stuff like that all the time. I'm sort of defending him here but to me, given all the circumstances, its not a big deal. If it was a tournament or PBA sanctioned event, or a guy that is disrespectful and dishonest all the time then I'd definitely be making a stink about it.


Even on the spares you mention, as well as any two/three pin spare, chopping a pin off is highly likely. Just have it set back up, it really isn't something that should be debated. If the league is sanctioned, do it. In my opinion, it IS a big deal. As you mentioned, this is a sanctioned league and the outcome of this shot will in turn affect the bowlers average. Any tournaments, whether local, state or even national will use this bowlers average which in the above scenario is being falsified. Don't you think that is a big deal? I have seen too many times where 1 pin makes the difference between winning a championship and losing one. Just ask Chris Barnes (sorry Chris, I had to.) As far as a pin setter knocking down pins, or noticing missing pins in a rack, anyone who see's it is obligated to inform the affected bowlers of the situation and if they try and say that it doesn't matter, then it's time for a little USBC Rules 101. If you aren't the type that likes to be outspoken, then let a league officer do the explaining, but you need to make the call as soon as you see the infraction. USBC Rule 329 covers all of these areas nicely...


6a. Legal Pinfall


Pins to be credited to a player following a legal delivery shall include:

1. Pins knocked down or off the lane surface by the ball or another pin.

2. Pins knocked down or off the lane surface by a pin rebounding from a side partition or rear cushion.

3. Pins knocked down or off the lane surface by a pin rebounding from the sweep bar when it is at rest on the pin deck before sweeping dead wood from the pin deck.

4. Pins that lean and touch the kickback or side partition. All such pins are termed dead wood and must be removed before the next delivery.

No pins may be conceded, and only pins actually knocked down or moved entirely off the playing area of the lane surface as a result of a legal delivery may be counted.


6b. Illegal Pinfall


When any of the following occur, the delivery counts but the resulting pinfall does not:

1. A ball leaves the lane before reaching the pins.

2. A ball rebounds from the rear cushion.

3. A pin rebounds after coming in contact with the body, arms or legs of a human pinsetter.

4. A pin is touched by mechanical pinsetting equipment.

5. Any pin knocked down when dead wood is being removed.

6. Any pin knocked down by a human pinsetter.

7. The player commits a foul.

8. A delivery is made with dead wood on the lane or in the gutter and the ball contacts such dead wood before leaving the lane surface.

9. A delivery is made with dead wood on the lane or in the gutter, and a pin, after coming into contact with the dead wood, knocks down one or more pins.


If an illegal pinfall occurs and the player is entitled to additional deliveries in the frame, the pin(s) illegally knocked down must be respotted where it (they) originally stood before delivery of the ball.


8. Dead Ball


When a dead ball is called, the delivery does not count and the correct pins must be respotted. The player is allowed to rebowl that delivery.



A ball shall be declared dead if any of the following occur:

a. After a delivery, attention is immediately called to the fact that one or more pins were missing from the setup.

b. A human pinsetter interferes with any standing pin before the ball reaches the pins.

c. A human pinsetter removes or interferes with any downed pin before it stops rolling.

d. A player bowls on the wrong lane or out of turn, or one player from each team on the pair of lanes bowls on the wrong lane.

e. A player has physical contact with another person or moving object as the ball is being delivered and before delivery is completed. In such case, the player has the option to accept the resulting pinfall or have a dead ball called.

f. Any pin is moved or knocked down as a player delivers the ball but before the ball reaches the pins.

g. A delivered ball comes in contact with a foreign obstacle.


All of this AND much more can be found on the bowl dot com website. Learn the rules and abide by them, no matter how irrelevant you may think it is.It's all about integrity.
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#49470 - 02/12/08 07:14 AM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: kagekikr]
kagekikr Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 147
A/S/L: 34/M/Michigan
That last post was getting really long and I was afraid some might skip it, and I wanted to touch on another common issue. All too often I see bowlers throwing shots while there is dead wood in the field of play. Most of the time it is in the channel, but on occasion I have seen where people will shoot at spares with dead wood on the lane. As referenced in a rule above, dead wood MUST be removed prior to throwing the next shot. I know many will say that it doesn't matter, I am not going to come anywhere near it, and infact, some time ago I actually had a guy yell at me for having dead wood cleared out of the right channel before I shot at a ten pin. This guy really surprised me, as he is a really good bowler, and as such, one would think that he would respect the rules... not always. I proceeded to tell him about a teammmate of mine earlier that season who had a pin in the gutter just in front of the ten pin. He chose not to clear it, and I was walking back to the settee area just as he released his ball. I watched in disgust as the ball traveled towards the ten pin and just before arriving at it's target, the ball which was VERY near the edge of the lane, struck the dead wood. I have NO DOUBT that despite being on the edge of the lane, this ball would have cleanly spared. Nope. Dead Ball. Nine, miss. We lost the game by 5 pins. Anyway, this guy was still ticked as now my dead wood was cleared, and I have to tell you, I got up on that lane praying to make that spare because I didn't want to walk off that lane after all that commotion with a big whiff. I made it, and I think I made my point.
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Light's out, it's time for LOCKDOWN!
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#49491 - 02/12/08 11:14 AM Re: What would you do? (cheating) [Re: kagekikr]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
I've watch half a game bowled with dead wood sitting in the gutter at a house thats easy to do it yourself. Hit the re-rack button for that lane and then throw a house ball down the gutter to clear it and it never registers as you need to hit the other reset button to clear the deck and works pretty much the same way. It wasn't in my league and I think it was before I knew much about the rules.
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