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#4629 - 09/07/01 01:29 PM Sand bagging
motion2strike Offline

Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 19
A/S/L: Huntington Beach, CA
I bowl on a 820 scratch league. The league rule for entering averages is as follows.
1. Current years book with no more then 5 pin drop from last years book.
2. Last years 820 scratch average as of April 15th.
3. 205 if none of the above are available.
Every year we have had a couple of teams come in at 820 or below and average 860 to 870 all season long. This leaves the rest of the league bowling for third place.
Some of these bowlers have with out a doubt have been sand bagging. The season is about to start again and I've already heard of guys coming in 20 pins under there honest averages.
What kills me is I hear people bragging about this. What can be done?

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#4630 - 09/07/01 08:46 PM Re: Sand bagging
Pizzaguy Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/12/01
Posts: 102
A/S/L: 50/M/Rochester, NY

Unforunately, not a lot CAN be done once you let them in the league, unless you can prove that their book averages are wrong.

Ask them what league they bowled in last year, and make sure the average in the book is from that league. If it's not, then you MIGHT have a basis from which to remove them from the league.

Aside from that, the league can make it clear to them that they will not be returning next year.

I don't have any other ideas. Sorry.
Jim Papazissimos
Rochester, NY
"Throw the &$#%^&% ball like you mean it!"

#4631 - 09/10/01 11:08 AM Re: Sand bagging
mbelanger Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 8
A/S/L: Round Rock, TX
One thought that comes to mind is whether they were booking their average in a different establishment than where the 820 league is held. I know of people in my area that do bowl roughly 20 pins better in one house than the others.

And there are others that sort of fluff off leagues unless there is enough $$$ to keep their interest...not necessarily sandbagging, but just not focusing as much as they otherwise would.

food for thought...

#4632 - 09/10/01 06:38 PM Re: Sand bagging
motion2strike Offline

Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 19
A/S/L: Huntington Beach, CA
The 820 is a good money league. The people I know who are coming in 20 pins under are doing so intentionaly. Last season we had 4 people come in 30+ pins under their true average. What their doing is bowling short leagues to get a book and then bowling tourney's or pot games the rest of the time.
How it's happening is not a secret, the people doing it will tell you. That's the problem. How will bowling have any integrety if bagging is permited? I enjoy competition bowling' I hope bowling will survive the decline we've seen, but allowing this type of thing to happen can't help the cause.
When was the last time a A.B.C. card was pulled for sand bagging? I been bowling in several houses for quite a while and I have never heard of it happening. On one occasion several people heard a known bagger braging as he was throwing gutter balls. Many people complained to the centers staff. they made an announcment the bagging was against abc rules and that was that.
There has to be more that can be done.

#4633 - 09/10/01 10:07 PM Re: Sand bagging
Pizzaguy Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/12/01
Posts: 102
A/S/L: 50/M/Rochester, NY
You can try and press the matter with your local association. But the plain fact of the matter is that while sandbagging is prohibited, it is almost impossible to prove.

And you should be careful about accusing someone of sandbagging unless you're absolutely, positively sure. A few years ago, a friend of mine was accused of bagging (he wasn't, just an injury he didn't tell anyone about) and his reputation was destroyed. It has taken 4 years to reach the point where no one asks him about it anymore.

I've seen people doing it, and I don't like it either. Maybe you can shame them into stopping, but I doubt it. It is a problem that has been with bowling since the advent of handicap, and will never be cpmpletely eradicated.
Jim Papazissimos
Rochester, NY
"Throw the &$#%^&% ball like you mean it!"

#4634 - 09/21/01 01:54 PM Re: Sand bagging
The Fish Bowl Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 71
A/S/L: My owner's desk
I was on a league last year that how two brothers who were obvioulsy sandbagging. The prior year they both averaged in the 220s. By the 4th week they were only averaging in the 180s. It was very apperent they were not trying those first weeks. To make things worse when they needed some pins to win a game they would start stringing strikes. The lanes were the same as the prior year and neither claimed an injury or had any excuse for it so a meeting was called and they were voted out of the league.

Fishy hasn't had a night out in a long time. Please donate using PAYPAL! ;-)

#4635 - 09/27/01 10:53 AM Re: Sand bagging
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 09/27/01
Posts: 1
A/S/L: 56/m/BC
Fishy, its obvious that they averages on walled lanes. It use to be the BOWLER adjusted (CONTROLED) the house he was bowling in, now the House controls the bowler.
I am disabled and gave up bowling 35 yrs ago , when we all bowled on wood lanes. I tried the old wood lanes and cant bowl on them.
When they opened an new house with the new lanes(PLASTIC) I was able too. Crippled and old I can bowl there and average 160+.

#4636 - 10/08/01 02:15 AM Re: Sand bagging
usr bin geek Offline

Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 315
A/S/L: 37/m/Burlington, VT
In the past I had to tell several bowlers they could no longer bowl in leagues in my house.

If it is an obvious problem you should consider speaking with the owner or manager of the house because these type of people usually end up costing a league a lot of members and many proprietors would rather 86 those doing it than risk loosing a good percentage of the league the next year. I know from experience that a lot of people will just not return to a league with sandbaggers because they dont want to bowl with those cheaters again.
All the best,
Steve Mermelstein

Since your questions may also be of benefit to others please post them to the board.

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#4637 - 10/11/01 08:55 AM Re: Sand bagging
timf Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 2
A/S/L: Enid, OK
I would suggest that if you have teams that do this every year, you need to revise your league rules to read, use last years average in this league or highest book average. If they do not qualify for the 820 then you address that issue by raising the average cap or do not let that team bowl with the same members.

#4638 - 10/16/01 12:50 PM Re: Sand bagging
pinqueen2000 Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 111
A/S/L: Johnson City TN
Hi to all,

Bagging is a problem in my house too and we just don't bowl with them. They keep their averages low until tourny time then WHAM they take our money. We stopped them entering tourneys but you can't stop them in leagues. We just use peer pressure (even in our 40's) and they are doing better. Me....I bowl good or bad....I just bowl.
To all you baggers....SHAME,SHAME,SHAME on you for cheating because thats what you are doing CHEATING!!!!!
The Pinqueen

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