Carrying this over from the old site, in a conversation with brett, where he mentioned playing a line pretty straight up the middle...

Have you ever tried a line laying the ball down around the 1 or 2 board, just to create a little more angle? Don't know if there has been any research into the best carry for throwing a straight ball...

Actually, a line that starts on the 1 or 2 board and tries to hit just on the left side of the headpin would probably get really good pin action, and if the ball deflects nicely it might even send the 1 towards the 10, the 2 towards the 9, the 4 into the 8, and then take out the 7 pin...

Food for thought. Anyone else have ideas?

This has actually been covered numerous times. Just to update you, research has been conducted. It has been found out that an angle of 6 degrees is the optimal entry angle getting strikes. It is impossible to create that angle by rolling the ball straight to the pocket from the one board. The ball would have to roll a certain distance straight down the boards and hook to the pocket ( Walter Ray, Norm Duke ). When you play the lanes straight, If you are accurate, getting to the pocket isn't the problem, carry is. The answer is usually to just add more speed and play the same line. This is what Walter Ray and Norm Duke do to perfection. If you can play the same area, with this straightish line to the pocket ( the ball does hook some ), the straight player will have an advantage over the big hooker on tough conditions.

There are some conditions where it is very hard to create any hook at all. Like the 50 foot pattern they use in the Tournament of Champions. However, the bowler with the best chance of winning is the bowler who can consistently get their ball to the pocket with the highest rev rate on the ball as it enters the pocket. This was the case with Tommy Jones last year at the ToC. His ball had the most energy as it entered the pocket. All of the bowlers were playing similar lines. The main difference was the rev rate.

I stand on 16 and aim at 15. Its a very minimal angle, but it has served me well for avoiding splits. Tonight in league I rolled 182, 149, 214 for my best series in my first year of bowling.


Tonight in league the lanes were dry, especially the back end. It hardly affected me at all, but the guys with big hooks were struggling. The only thing I noticed was that with the dry lanes my ball was rolling out, so I had to throw it faster. Normally I have to throw my 16 pound ball at least 15 MPH to have a chance of striking. Tonight I had to get a higher backswing and bring the speed up to at least 16+ to strike. (By game 3 I had it down!).

I plan to practice with the maximum possible angle. If I'm in the left lane of the pair, I will probably be starting extremely close to the ball return. Will see if this helps my game.

You have to find the best entry angle for your ball. Yeah, your current line may be safe from splits, and that's OK. But, is it the best line to carry strikes? That is the angle you have to find.

I know a few straight bowlers in my league, and 2 of them start on the left because their entry angle to the Brooklyn produces better first ball results and the ball sits in the center oil longer.

It's a matter of what you can do best.

Smooth: I meant for someone who does not hook the ball and does not want to learn (or can't).

Brett: I'm sorry, I thought you were conventional grip + straight ball. You do use a conventional grip, right? But you get some axis rotation? If that is the case, moving outside to help get that angle might not be the best move, just because the boards are so dry out there on a typical house shot that you'd probably roll out after about 20 feet, which would probably get you a lot less entry angle than you can get now (if you are in fact hooking the ball a bit). Then again, if you could point to the ball to the pocket a bit, and find a consistent breakpoint out there, you might be able to create more angle than you have now. It just gets so touchy out there on a house shot that a consistent breakpoint can be hard to find.

Pocket hits are about 50% strikes with my current line and ball speed. I get about 1 split per game. I should try some different lines in practice, or learn to hook it.

I'm not sure I understand the advantage of starting left? (For a right handed bowler). I would think that to get the maximum angle starting left, you would be starting almost in the neighboring lane. Or are we talking about a ball with a very slight left hook?


Yes, I use a conventional grip and bowl straight (my wrist was weakened by an accident many years ago). I get no axis rotation.

Now I realize that I probably confused you by using the words 'rolling out'. What I meant was that in league last night I noticed that my ball was starting its roll very early (losing too much energy) on the dry lane conditions.

Another thing I noticed last night is that my ball is tracking over the thumb hole. And it was noisy going down the lane - you could hear it thump every rev when the thumb hole was on the lane. .... Oh well, didnt seem to hurt my score.

Brett. in response to your comment; How many 5 pins do you leave, alone or with other pins standing?

"I'm not sure I understand the advantage of starting left? (For a right handed bowler). I would think that to get the maximum angle starting left, you would be starting almost in the neighboring lane. Or are we talking about a ball with a very slight left hook?"

It is very common for a straight baller, coming in from the right, to experience deflection when hitting the pocket. Coming in from the other side minimizes that, as the ball is driving through to the 5 rather than bouncing to the right.

I leave a lot of 5's unless I can throw it 16+ MPH. But I lose accuracy going fast.

I'll try your suggestion about getting maximum angle from the left in practice tomorrow night.

Dennis, I have to disagree there. Unless he learns to walk around the ball return, he'll be able to create maximum angle from the right side. If he puts it down on 1, he's sliding on 7 or 8. That's pretty comfortable on either side of the return. If he's setting it down on 39, he's sliding into the gutter cap. That's tough to do on the right lane. In 2 of the centers around here, with above-ground returns, it's impossible to lay it down left of 30.

Physics doesn't from a different angle - Jason Couch gets just as much deflection as Tommy Jones (tried to pick similar rev-rates and angles for the example) Likewise, a line from 1 to 17 gets just as much deflection as a line from 39 to 23.

Now, in the case that you meant he start left and aim for the right-hander's pocket, then that is what I was suggesting he do, except that I suggested starting on the far right and aiming to the left-handers pocket, probably on board 22 for best carry.

Not saying this is a cure-all. As a hook bowler will move inside to change the entry angle, a straight bowler has to find the optimum angle to carry.

I have heard that in order to create the correct angle into the pocket throwing a straight ball that if you are bowling on all 1, you have to stand on the far right of alley 2 (if you are a righty). The people I see throw straight balls get more carry when they hit high flush or light. A lot of pocket hits leave 5 and 5-8s.

Agreed, GP. A straight bowler has to find the correct angle, either far right or the other. But, the couple I know who roll from the left explain it as you have to see what the ball rotation does. A conventional grip rollling inside the oil edge will not roll, but will have a tendancy to slide. However, the ball rotation may not be perfectly straight when it hits the dry, but either left or right, especially if he is coming straight up on the release.

A bowler has to learn what the natural roll of his ball does and match that with the proper angle to improve.

One in particular comes straight up at the release, but has a natural outward movement of his right hand, causing a slight backward roll. His best angle is from the left for a 190+ average.

The alternative is to change the release to a more traditional style, which takes training.

My plan is to stand on top of the ball return with a one step (I mean one leap) delivery. Should get a lot of speed and loft as my ball flies over board 39! LOL

I've seen the same thing. If I miss my mark a couple boards left and brooklyn, its about 2X more likely to strike than a 1-3 pocket hit. It's embarrasing, but it works.

There are a few conditions where you would need to use a straight ball for a strike ball. But otherwise, I fail to see why one would go to a laser like straight ball to try and strike. What kind of injury would cause someone to need to bowl using a straight ball path and not try to learn how to bowl using a minimal hook? why go through the trouble of learning the optimal ball path for a straight ball and ignore the fact that the optimal ball path for any type of ball path is created by some form of hooking path to the pocket? I'm a little confused here. Why ask for help on how to get more strikes by bowling straight? If you really want more strikes, learn how to hook the ball at least a little.

And I'm not talking about hooking the whole lane. It isn't necessary. Simply staying behind the ball and keeping a firm wrist will probably be all that is necessary. Hooking the ball isn't hard and it creates the best chance to score well. I'm really at a loss here.

Not trying to be difficult, just want to be clear. why do you want to bowl totally straight again?

The gory details: My wrist was broken twice. My thumb was broken in 3 places and almost completely blown off. I am lucky to still have it. The tip of it is missing and I cant bend it at the first joint. It took me many months of trial and error just to be able to hold on to the ball during the downswing.

The joints of my index and ring fingers are functional, but get very sore and swollen with use. I am able to throw a hook, but after a few throws my fingers hurt too much to continue. Throwing it straight puts less strain on my fingers.

I didn't actually start this topic (cgeorg did). But I'm sure that many others besides myself find this topic interesting, and there are many others who throw it straight -- either by choice or by physical limitation.

Anyway, I'm working on fixing and strengthening my hand. I will be seeing a reconstructive hand surgeon and physical therapist soon. Eventually I will probably throw a hook.

So I am still investigating my options. Until then, I am having fun and getting much more accurate (which is essential for straight ball). Considering my hand, I'm very happy with my progress so far -- I started bowling in February this year and last Tuesday league I averaged 182.

Hey man, I think some of us gathered that. Others may have missed prior discussions. Especially, with a few months of posts missing from the board.

Keep exploring to find the best angle for you.

Sorry about that, this topic seemed to start from the middle. I was totally lost. Sorry about the hand injury. Hope all goes well with your progress.
Good luck and God bless.

what i do in practice sometimes may help you or at least give you a way to think about continuing to adapt

I move my feet to just right of center dot on approach
Then i stare straight down 12 with my hand suitcased and my pinky finger tucked in on ball.
I release the ball a little slower(from about 17.5/18 to about 16 mph) and release the ball still suitcased.
My ball (white dot) doesn't even move until the last few inches but the oinky gives it a little rev/hook and i carry well, leaving a few 8 or 10s to spare.
i needed this shot 2 weeks ago in league (3rd game) and shot 212 with it
good luck with everything by the way

Thanks for your contribution, waxing. Welcome.

Thanks, and welcome to the board.

I'll try that in practice before league tonight.

I practiced 12 games last night -- 4 with a wrist brace and a slightly lighter Radical Inferno. It hurt my fingers a bit but I was able to throw hooks. The hook was unpredictable, but it gave me a much larger margin of error to strike. I'm not ready to use it in league yet -- will take lots of practice.

With my current straight game, I either have to nail the 1-3 pocket perfectly or cross over and hit the 1-2 pocket with a slightly higher margin for error. It's a dangerous game though, hitting the head pin is *risky* and can result in open frames!

What's really frustrating is to see what looks like a very well aimed straight ball hit the 1-2 pocket and leave something like a 7-9 split. I wish I had a dollar for every time that happened.

If anyone reading this thinks that a straight ball is the way to go, think again. Its the path to frustration in today's bowling environment. If my hand was healthy I would have abandoned the straight ball long ago.

I'm sure this was covered already, but what is the weight of your bowling balls?

My straight ball is a 16 pound conventional drilled AMF Orbit Extreme. I use it 95% of the time.

The ball I tried last night in practice is a 15 pound fingertip grip Radical Inferno. Its too heavy for me to keep my hand underneath without a wrist brace (which I don't like to wear). Its very hard for me to control the amount of hook. It goes long. Sometimes it makes a sharp turn and sometimes it doesn't.

The other ball is a 13 pound Brunswick BVP Mammoth fingertip grip. It has a big, smooth arcing hook and I can keep my hand underneath it for maybe 6 frames without a wrist brace. Being 3 pounds lighter, it deflects off the pins more a lot and requires a higher degree of accuracy than the other two.

Tonight was the end of my Fall League, and the next one starts in early January. So I have 4 weeks to practice if I decide to switch balls. If I'm going to do it, now is the time. But I'm not sure what I should do. Any advice would be welcome.

Brett, what is wrong with using a wrist brace (support)? I generally use one. I don't understand the big differences in weight of the balls. 13 to 16 #'s and conventional to fingertip grips? There must be a weight and grip that is more comfortable and manageable? Stay with one combo.

My take is on the Rad Inf. 15#. You could use this ball coming out straight up as you explain you do. The asymetrical weight of this ball will let it turn on it's own, without cupping your hand too much. It also is heavy enough to minimize deflection that you would get with a 13# ball.

I have a teammate on Wed who uses this exact ball. He literally drops the ball behind his sliding foot on delivery every time. Really, the ball is behind his foot. So you know he has very little wrist in the ball. He can manage a nice hook and carry, with a 192 average. Wouldn't recommend his style, but would the ball.

Dennis, does your teammate have a conventional or fingertip grip?

Conventional is much more comfortable for me. Fingertip grip puts painful amounts of strain on my fingers.

The thumb hole on my Radical Inferno is way too big. Since I have to get it plugged and re-drilled anyway, do you think I should change it to conventional?

I would stick with a 13 or 14 pound ball for now. Maybe 14 and a wrist brace. I would like to know exactly what causes the pain you spoke of. Is it having the ball roll off of your fingers? or is it turning your hand so the ball rotates at an angle? I also wouldn't worry about carry too much. Your carry will still be much better with a lighter weight and slightly hooking the ball over a straight heavy ball delivery. It's the axis rotation that will create the pin carry. Hopefully the extra speed created with the lighter weight will help fend off any extra deflection.

Smooth, deflection would be my concern with the lighter balls. Coming out straight up doesn't create favorable rotation except what the internal weight of the ball will generate on itsown. He needs to rely on his fingers to create the rotation, I agree.

I hate to say this, but in my neighborhood, there are quite a few 'finger only' bowlers, mostly younger. They can't generate rotation from a normal release, and have resorted in this cranking motion to compensate. It is very inconsistent, but it gets my point across. The fingers generate the axis of rotation. Brett has to learn that.

I also believe a wrist support would be helpful to remove any stress in the release. It holds the wrist steady and better ones can be adjusted, like the Pro Release I use, to get better finger action. My guess is that he may be coming out more on top rather than under the ball.

The pain is in the first finger joints of my ring and middle finger. They get bent backwards when I use a fingertip grip. Its not from turning my wrist, because it hurts just as much if I throw it with no wrist rotation at all . The heavier the ball, the more pain. Maybe I'm doing something wrong to cause this -- like trying to get too many revs?

Dennis is suggesting that I switch to the Radical Inferno without changing the release very much from my current straight ball. I'm leaning towards getting it re-drilled conventional. It has a much higher hook potential than my AMF Orbit, and should help me avoid leaving 5's (like I did several times in league last night).

Bad night to ask this. He really struggled tonight, only 456 series, well under average. Anyhow, he has a conventional grip. Stands left of center (left foot 3-4 boards left of center dot), rolls about 17 at the arrows to about 15 and a slight turn back. Tonight, he was getting it out too far, and leaving multi-pin spare shots, which he had trouble with.

Thanks for the help everyone. I think I'm taking the Radical Inferno into the shop tomorrow for a conventional re-drill.

Meanwhile, I'm going to see a hand surgeon and will see what can be done for my thumb and finger joint pain.

Looks like I won't be doing that after all. I took a close look at the ball and it has a new 6 inch long crack! Must have happened in practice Monday night.

Now I have to choose a new ball as this R.I. is now R.I.P.

Brett, I was reading this yesterday and remembered I once had a semi-fingertip span ball. It was a longer span than a conventional but not as long as a full fingertip span. It was my first non plastic ball, a urethane and it was the first one that I hooked. It didn't get much of a hook, 5-7 boards but if I was consistent it worked great. It was only my first year of bowling after a year and half absence, which techniquely was my second year. I'm not sure how much it would help but its a thought. Maybe someone else on here can shine more light on this drilling, whether it would be something to consider. As for the Radical Inferno, I have one and I like it, right now I can use it at either house I bowl in using radically different lines in each.

And after posting this I see your Radical is dead. I've seen people bowl with cracked bowling balls, don't recommend it though.

Brett, the more you explain your dilemma, the more I am coming to the conclusion that you are not rolling your ball off your fingers as Smooth suggests, but rather have your hand more on top of the ball at release. Erin calls that "above the equator". You either have your wrist slacked back during the backswing or the span is straining your fingers. Either will cause your ball to slide and not roll. And, deflection will occur on impact, leaving 5 pins.

If your hand is back and you are trying to use your fingers, that in itself is causing finger strain.

Now, that you have to start with a new ball, try the drop in weight to 14# as Smooth suggests with a high hook potential ball, conventional grip, and use a wrist support. The positive thing I find with the wrist support is that is a good training tool. If you feel the support pressure the back of your hand through the swing, it tells you that your wrist is slackened and bent back. Through practice, you can feel the pressure lessen which tells you that your wrist is straighter.

I use the wrist support to retrain my wrist and hand when I notice that I released the ball wrong. And, it only takes a couple of rolls to retrain it. Then, I take it off.

Dennis, you're right. Yes, my wrist is slacked back and that is the first thing I was told that I need to correct in my lesson several weeks ago. The coach told me I had a slight amount of a 'backup ball' and needed to straighten my wrist more. This probably explains why I often leave the 5 pin when I hit the 1-2 pocket.

Will do, and I thank everyone here for the advice. Now I'm wondering which ball/brand to get and how to have it drilled (early hook or going long). So many choices.

Brett said: Will do, and I thank you guys for the advice. Now I'm wondering which ball/brand to get and how to have it drilled (early hook or going long). So many choices. But I guarantee you that I won't be buying another ball from eBay.


EARLY HOOK. Your ball doesn't need the length, you need the finish. Best bet, a sanded ball at 600 to 400 grit finish. Nothing over 1000. Remember, you are playing inside the taper of the center where the oil is rather than an outside line where it is dryer. Get friction in the oil. But, remember they absorb oil and require maintenance.

The lighter ball will be easier on your fingers. 14 will do. The wrist brace will keep your wrist straight. If you keep your hand behind the ball at an angle, you will create the axis rotation needed to make the ball hook. I would go with a matte finish symmetrical core reactive ball.

As a person with an injury, don't feel bad about using a wrist brace. Try to keep your fingers behind the ball, at an angle. Let the ball roll off of your finger tips ( if that's possible ). The thumb doesn't create rotation, It provides grip. the fingers provide roll and revs, the hand position provides axis rotation. Plenty of revs can be created without any finger flipping at all. Ask Pete Weber. He gets plenty of revs without putting any fingers into his release. It's all in the rotation of the wrist and timing.

Hey Smooth, you just made your 1000th post!. And thanks for the good advice. I appreciate the fact that you're taking the time to help a newbie like me with a messed up hand.

Having been in a league for 10 months (almost the entire time since I started bowling), I've been afraid to make major changes in delivery that might hurt both my hand and score in the short term, along with my team's standing.

Fall League is officially over now and I'm considering the possibility of taking a break and not doing league in the Winter/Spring season. That way I can get my badly needed hand surgery, recover from it, and then learn to throw a hook. I won't have the pressure to perform every week and I can take the time to learn to do it properly.

As for my next ball, I'm considering getting a Brunswick Twisted Fury drilled to hook early.

Another possibility I could try is a thumbless delivery style. As it is now, my thumb is so messed up that it doesn't do much to support the weight of ball. So I'm thinking about leaving it outside the holes throughout the swing (with a cupped wrist). I've seen other league bowlers use this delivery and get a huge hook.

In summary, I guess you could say that I am facing a lot of choices right now with my bowling game.

Brett

P.S. -- Assuming that the Admin approves it, I'm changing my username from 'brettbolt' to 'Cracked Inferno'.

Good luck with the possible surgery. Hope all goes well. Maybe you can insert some bionics in your hand that always cause your hand to have the exact rotation needed for a smooth hook to the pocket? I know it can be done. Seen it in many movies. That would be awesome. Better than a gyroscope ball.

I know Smooth approached this question, and I will repeat it. Did you ever consider bowling with the other hand?

If you don't bowl in Winter, don't stop coming around. If you can only type with one hand, I'll try to piece in the letters from the right side of the keyboard. Who needs periods?

As a transformed thumbless bowler, I don't suggest doing it. It is very hard to be accurate with it at all times, and can be harder to make spares. It takes a lot of practice and work to get it down. Then there are issues with drier lanes. One also does not have the ability to change hand or finger positions to try to get a little different reaction out of it. That big hook is a nice thing to watch, but can be kill your score with the amount of splits that you can leave. It also puts more wear and tear on the wrist and elbow. I had several bowlers back when I started bowling with two fingers tell me about how much better my average would be if I learned to bowl with my thumb. One of the bowlers used to bowl thumbless, and said is average went up after he learned to use the thumb, and became more consistent. I changed over almost two years ago and have been doing much better, averaging 20 pins higher, and can hook the ball as much now as I could then. I am now one of those who try to talk a thumbless bowler into learning a more conventional way to bowl. Also if you do go thumbless you have to make sure the thumb hole is covered at all times during the swing by some part of your hand.

I was still in High School after the accident in 1975, and I had to learn to write left handed. (Which I can still do). So I am sure I could eventually learn to bowl with it.

I can easily hold my left wrist straight with a 15 or 16 pound ball, so a brace wouldn't be necessary. But, as with most rightys, my left arm is not as well coordinated, so it will take lots of practice to switch.

I'll still come here often this spring, even if I sit out the league season. And you'll know when my right hand is all bandaged up because all my typing will be in lower case. I plan on abandoning all use of the shift key (which takes 2 hands).



Thanks Cal, I'll take your advice and not attempt it. I tried some thumbless deliveries last night (into the couch cushion) and it seemed like it could easily put too much strain on my fingers.

Thursday I am seeing my hand surgeon to discuss my options. After that, its big decision time.

Dennis, is a bionic hand legal to use in USBC leagues and tournaments?

I know this is sometimes a topic that is avoided, but have you considered a two handed delivery? It's not that hard with a lighter ball, and it provides more power. Try it in practice, you might like it, the best bowler in the world right now is a two hander. It's becoming more popular, and on a house shot it makes you look great, lol. You can also legally switch between a two handed and a one handed delivery. You could pick up spares with one hand if you like. It might not be for you, but it is tons better than bowling with just two fingers.

No problem Brett. I will fool around every once in a while trying to throw it thumbless and I can't do it any more. My mechanics don't work for it now. Plus I have an issue staying under the ball.

I don't think this was a good week for Radical Infernos. I was using mine tonight in league as the pair I was on is known for quick transition, the last pair against the wall. Going after a gruesome 6-7 split I put the ball in the gutter three-quarters down the lane and when I go to use it the next frame I see a three inch gash in my