BowlingFans.com, The site for the fans, by the fans....
Sponsored Links




ChatBox:

Sponsored Links


Page 4 of 10 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#37316 - 12/27/06 09:13 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Dennis Michael]
jdill Offline
Bantam

Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 18
A/S/L: manila
But then again bowling doesn't only belong to the USA. Hello World?! Lol. =) Well I'm sorry if I'm posting in this particular topic because nobody said that this topic is only for those in the USA. I'm Asian and there are still a lot of wooden lanes here including the one where I bowl most of the time. And bowling is included in the Asian Games! Wow, that says a lot. ;-) Out of 428 gold medals in 47 sports/discipline 12 gold medals are from bowling.

Top
#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links Online   content
Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
Top
#37317 - 12/27/06 09:30 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Dennis Michael]
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2356
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
Quote:

I saw somewhere some guy posted a 261 for a season average, can't remember if it was Summer or Winter but that is unreal. I could understand if averages like this were routine but they are not. Most good house bowlers are in the 220-230 range like Erin said but even then it has taken that individual years to get there and make no mistake it takes work to stay there.


But it's crazy that anyone is averaging over 220, let alone a whole bunch of people in one association. I remember back when 217 was the high average for our entire association. I few years ago I averaged 231 and wasn't in the top 5 in the association. I probably wasn't in the top 10. That's absolutely insane.

I agree that scores are out of control and have played a huge role in ruining the game. I've read alot of people here say that if it's more difficult then people will leave. Why doesn't golf have that problem? The average golfer shoots 100+ and par is usually 70-72. How many people do you know personally that have shot even one round of par golf? The fact that golf is a very very difficult game doesn't seem to have hurt it's popularity. In fact, it just keeps growing and growning.

I don't know what the answer is because I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle. Hopefully sport and PBA patterns create more interest in bowling on tougher conditions and we have a return to competitive bowling instead of the adult bumper bowling we have today.

Top
#37318 - 12/27/06 11:03 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Lefty]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9763
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Hi Lefty,
And, Golfers even pay more money for a round at a harder course. They enjoy the challenge. As an 8 handicap, I often suffer the humiliation.
That 261 average was posted as the highest average on the USBC web site.
And, Don Carter set an ABC Tournament record of 221?

Glad to see bowling in the Asian Games. What lane surface do they use for those?

The PBA Tourney was really popular in Japan.
By the way, just how do they throw that helicopter ball?
_________________________
LM - Black Diamond 15#
Lord Field - Exodus Pearl 15#
Legends - L/M New Terminator 15#
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




Top
#37319 - 12/27/06 11:04 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Lefty]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Quote:
But it's crazy that anyone is averaging over 220, let alone a whole bunch of people in one association.


No, not a whole bunch. 1/2 a percent. .5% of the association membership (in my example). Its not common and its not a whole bunch. It seems that way because the people that post on boards like this are interested in bowling more then a majority of people that use bowling as recreation. Therefore, we pay attention and notice those in the .5%.

As for golf. It has a sensation. It has a personality in Tiger Woods that draws people that don't golf to the sport. I've never golfed in my life, yet I'll watch Tiger Woods play his game every once in a while. You don't have someone like that in bowling. We don't have a personality that reaches out beyond those that are already interested in the sport. Our pros are great, but none of them have been able to reach beyond the sport and inspire awe like Tiger Woods does for golf. The last time bowling had that kind of feeling was Earl Anthony. Before Tiger Woods, I couldn't even bear to have the game on TV for a minute. It was boring. Now golf has an international superstar. And I do know a few people that have shot par golf and had holes in one. But then they were not at Pebble Beach either......sound familiar? Pebble Beach vs. local 18 hole course. PBA shot vs. local house shot.

I think the USBC is doing its best, I hope it is, in creating two bowling environments. One more challenging and one more recreational. In fact they have short lanes with virtual reactions for areas where you cannot fit a full bowling lane. Even that is like golf....PuttPutt vs 40' Lane.

Erin

Top
#37326 - 12/27/06 12:20 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Atochabsh]
Scott Gannon Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 967
A/S/L: 51/M/California
I think all sports change and evolve over time, in particular in this day and age of bigger and better. I almost look at the chnages as having saved bowling, not ruining it.
_________________________
Summer 2012-League Average-179, HG-224, HS-595
Fall 2012-2013-League Average-181, HG-237, HS-624
Summer 2013-League Average-189, HG-245, HS-653
Fall 2013-14-League Average-178, HG-228, HS-631

Top
#37327 - 12/27/06 12:36 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Scott Gannon]
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
bowlerjim has a point, because, IMHO, the sport has evolved into something a little easier, but I disagree on the equipment aspect to a degree. Sure, covers are stronger, cores are stronger, and they make a slight difference, but as far as making the shot, it all depends on the person throwing the ball. If you have, uh, 10 boards (I want to bowl in this house), then you have to know how to take advantage of that 10 board shot. Some people might not be able to take advantage of that shot and might only see 2 or 3 boards.

Had you been able to consistently lay out a walled up pattern 30 years ago, you'd have seen more 300's thrown. But since a lot of lanes were stripped and oiled by hand (anyone remember the sprayers?), consistent lane patterns were a luxury. Now we have machines that strip and oil and use jets to lay out a condition that can specifically lay a certain amount of oil on a board on a consistent basis, so bowlers pretty much know week to week what they're going to face.

Lane technology has changed quite a bit since the 70's. Instead of mainly wood lanes, we have synthetics. Synthetics are far more durable and consistent a lane surface than wood ever could or would be, even despite the technology of wood finishes.

The easier shots laid out today combined with a little better ball technology have raised the mean average about 5-10 pins. The pros, on a most house shots, will average in the neighborhood of 230-240 without batting an eyelash.

As far as losing league bowlers, I don't think it has so much to do with easy shots or ball technology, it's the lack of time and dedication to the sport. Most leagues are now starting at 7 PM because people know have 30-90 minute commutes to work, and a 7:00 time is easier to accomodate more bowlers than 6 PM. People don't bowl late leagues because of that 30-90 minute commute to work and have to get up early.

Mainly, though, it's dedication. As a society, we have so much more demands on our time as people today than we had 10, 20, even 30 years ago, and some of us just can't dedicate one night for 30-35 weeks to be at a bowling center. Times change, and there are so many more recreational activites other than bowling that it's hard to divvy up time between all the things that something has to give. For some ex-bowlers, well, it's bowling, unfortunately.
_________________________
"There are no magical balls, just magical bowlers"

Top
#37328 - 12/27/06 01:07 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Brian Longo]
Scott Gannon Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 967
A/S/L: 51/M/California
All your points are excellent Brian. I agree that lack of time is a huge factor in league participation. That being said I think a lot depends on the area where you live. Where I bowl with only 2 centers in a large area I could barely get in a league. Also top dog in our league out of 23 four bolwers mixed teams has a 195 average. I noticed where my sister bowls the averages are higher but they have adjusted the handicap to be based on 220. To me that keeps it competetive and does not give the high average guy at 217 an unfair advantage.
_________________________
Summer 2012-League Average-179, HG-224, HS-595
Fall 2012-2013-League Average-181, HG-237, HS-624
Summer 2013-League Average-189, HG-245, HS-653
Fall 2013-14-League Average-178, HG-228, HS-631

Top
#37329 - 12/27/06 01:27 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Atochabsh]
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2356
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: Scott Gannon
I think all sports change and evolve over time, in particular in this day and age of bigger and better. I almost look at the chnages as having saved bowling, not ruining it.


Saving it by cutting the number of sanctioned bowlers in half over the last 10 years? confused




Originally Posted By: Atochabsh

No, not a whole bunch. 1/2 a percent. .5% of the association membership (in my example). Its not common and its not a whole bunch.


What percent of adult men is it, and what's the total number? The problem is that it was a freak occurance for someone to average 220 in the past and now you know that you're going to have a few hand fulls every year now. Any decent league, including your upper handicap leagues, know that the high average is going to be 220+. I've averaged over 220 every year for the last 5 years on a house shot, and I'm no super star. Heck, my name shouldn't even be mentioned with the top 20 bowlers in my city, let alone state, let alone nationally. But here I am, year after year, averaging between 220 and 231 on a house shot. I even peaked at 237 after the midway point of the season. I'd even go out and know that I threw the ball terrible and shoot 700.

I have people tell me "What are you doing bowing here? You should be a pro." What they don't understand is that with the way I'm throwing the ball, I can't carry a pro's lunch. Maybe if I put a lot of practice in to it, got in a lot better shape, then maybe I'd stand a chance of not embarrassing myself, but that's not required to average 220+ on house shots now.

Back to that year that 217 led the city around here. That was before my time, but I know the average because it was my father. He did it with a yellow dot. This was when I was a little kid and I know that he practiced all the time, bowled 3 leagues including a travel league, had his PBA card (which required PBA school back then), and bowled in tournaments every weekend as long as he could find one within a 6 hour drive.

Today he almost never practices, only bowls 2 leagues and usually averages over 220. He laughs about it because he certianly isn't a better bowler or work harder at it now. It's just flat out easier to score.

Top
#37330 - 12/27/06 03:02 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Lefty]
Scott Gannon Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 967
A/S/L: 51/M/California
Did you ever think the drop in sanctioned bowlers may have been worse without the changes? You have to remember that we as a society are constantly changing and like Brian said our free time is at a premium. As older bowlers drop out you have to get new bowlers interested and like it or not that is through higher scoring, big hooking, big reaction balls and lanes, etc.

_________________________
Summer 2012-League Average-179, HG-224, HS-595
Fall 2012-2013-League Average-181, HG-237, HS-624
Summer 2013-League Average-189, HG-245, HS-653
Fall 2013-14-League Average-178, HG-228, HS-631

Top
#37331 - 12/27/06 03:25 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Lefty]
Show300 Offline
High Roller

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 313
A/S/L: 33/M/Bellflower, CA
I think what Erin pointed out is absolutely true. If you walk into most houses and pick up the league sheet, you'll see very few 200+ averages. I know for a fact that in my Tuesday league (in one of the toughest houses in So. Ca.), there are only 3 200 avg bowlers out of 22-five person teams. That's 3 out of 110, a whopping 2.7%. And that's only a 200 avg, and none of them are close to 220. It's me @ 204, my 4th bowler @ 206, and a guy from another team who is @ 202. So maybe it just depends on the house.

In my Sunday league, another 22 team-4 person league, there are about 8-200 bowlers and no one averaging 220. Eight out of 88...9.1%. The closest to 220 is 218, and I'm at 216.

And on Wednesday, out of 16-5 person teams, there are about 7-200 average bowlers and no 220's. That's about another 9%. And the highest average in there is about 212. If you add up all three of those houses on my league nights it equates to about 6% of the bowlers in those leagues averaging 200. And I'm sure the number gets smaller from house to house, because right here in my area of So. CA. we've got about 3 or 4 houses that most people won't even go into because they're just that tough.

Right now there are 13 NBA players out of 360 averaging 25 points a game...yep, about 3.6%. Does that mean the rest of the league is mediocre? No way, it just takes something extra to get onto an NBA roster that I know I didn't have even during my college and Marine Corps team playing days. Bowling is the same, just because a guy averages 220 in league doesn't mean he's ready for the rigors of being on tour, but it doesn't mean he's not good either. If you know someone who doesn't practice and can still maintain a high average, so be it...pat him on the back and say job well done. But there are many of us who still put in the time on the lanes to become better bowlers, myself included.


Anyway, this is just to say that the majority of these leagues feature 170, 180, 190 average bowlers. 200 is still a mark that should be recognized. And I would willing to bet that if you look into the bags of those 170, 180 and 190 bowlers they are probably carrying similar equipment as are the 200 bowlers. You can talk about the lanes, the coverstocks, the ball mechanics, etc...but when it's all said and done, nothing beats good old fashioned practice and knowing how to play the game.

It's like comparing LeBron to MJ...I mean, they both are great, but everyone thinks the person from their era was better. The bowlers from Jim's generation worked with the equipment they were provided with and our generation of bowlers work with what we have. Does it make Don Carter better than WRW or Earl Anthony better than Parker Bohn III? There's no way to tell.

Does it mean that the bowlers of today should be punished for having better equipment? Would you punish Jeff Gordon for having a faster car and better pit crew than Dale Earnhardt? Would you punish Ozzie Smith for having a better glove than Nap Lajoie? Would you punish Wayne Gretzky for having a better stick than Gordie Howe?

Times change, equipment changes, the game changes...it's evident in just about every sport. Sure you're going to have those few guys who make it look easier than everyone else. But most of us work hard to hone our skills and don't like to feel slighted by someone who thinks we've got it easy. It's still about getting your ball down the lane and striking/sparing. If it were that simple, like I said before, we'd all be looking for sponsors.


Edited by Show300 (12/27/06 03:31 PM)
_________________________
And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and possess unlimited knowledge, and have faith which could remove mountains; and have not charity, I am nothing - 1 Corinthians 13:2

Top
Page 4 of 10 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 9 10 >



Moderator:  Angel, Community Manager 
Savings That Support BowlingCommunity.com
We need your help!
Rather than begging for donations we're asking you to do one simple thing to help keep these forums running smooth:
When shopping for anything on Amazon.com or eBay please use these links to go to the web sites.

This won't cost you a cent!
You'll still get the exact same low prices, deals and free or low cost shipping; it doesn't change anything for you at all! The items do not have to be bowling related; all purchases made through these links help us! Amazon.com and eBay will pay us a small commission for every sale and it's helping us cover the expenses.

BowlingCommunity.com Recent Posts
Fall/Winter 2018-19 Leagues Thread
by Richie V. - 10/18/18 04:06 PM
Mo Pinel "Striking Effectively In Today's Game"
by BOSStull - 10/14/18 06:16 AM
Buying new house shoes.
by BOSStull - 10/11/18 05:58 AM
Storm/Roto Grip MatchMaker Live
by BOSStull - 10/11/18 05:44 AM
Terms Of Use
Use of this community signifies your agreement to the Community Standards and Conditions of Use.

About BowlingFans.com | Contact Us | Advertise With Us | Site Map
Use of this website constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. | Material Connection Disclosure

Copyright © 1998 - 2018 - usrbingeek LLC | Copyright Policy
BowlingFans.com, BowlingFans, The Right Approach, Kegler's Connection, Tour411, BallBeat, BowlingCommunity.com, BowlSearch.com, and Bowling News You Can Use are trademarks of usrbingeek LLC. All other trademarks and tradenames are property of their respective owners.