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#37498 - 12/31/06 07:34 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Atochabsh]
Silent Mike Offline
Pro of the Year Hopeful

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 780
A/S/L: 36/M/Poconos PA
I've seen people hit better scores with new equipment. I've seen them hit better series and go on streaks scoring better but a better ball in the hands of someone with fundamental flaws will show their weakness at some point over the course of a SEASON. Maybe there are a few that "super balls" will help average over 200 but they were not that far off the mark to begin with. It's not like 160-170 average bowlers average 210 the same day they buy a new ball.

Also maybe it's the house you bowl at as well, sounds like you might be going to easy walled up houses. And I'm not trying to call Lefty out but if you're making your assumptions based on one house that's having blinders on a bit. Many people still work hard and earn what they get even with strides in technology. I won't be the one to take it away from them just because some people believe the sport has a black eye due to uneven playing fields between league bowlers and pros.
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#37508 - 12/31/06 09:59 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Atochabsh]
Smooth Stroker Offline
Legend

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1207
A/S/L: 40/M/NYC
"300 on a House shot is not the same as a 300 on the Pro patterns."
"Typical House Shots are too easy for above average bowlers"
"Shooting Par on a park district course is not the same as Par at Augusta"

Exactly. The pattern or the course makes all the difference. Put out a tough pattern, and it doesn't matter which ball you put in your hands. Look at the scores in the USBC tournaments. They are what they are because of the pattern not because the USBC tells everyone they have to use plastic.
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#37549 - 01/01/07 12:45 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Smooth Stroker]
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1278
A/S/L: 34/M/Hampstead, NC
Here is my own personal observation from bowlers I've bowled with where I live. I've seen equipment raise people's averages maybe 5 pins at best from their previous averages on the same shot. To that end, I have also seen some people's averages increase 10 to 20 pins by moving to a different house 15 miles away from their old one.

Example:
6 years ago, two bowlers who used to average no higher than 170 (mainly 166 and 164), myself who used to average 192-196, and my wife, a good bowler who used to average in the 160's, in a house considered to be the toughest in Northeast Georgia, before the lane beds became minefields, now have averages of 177 (from 164), 178 (from 166), 200 and 215 (myself), and 175-180 (my wife). The differences aren't so much equipment, though all four of us have new equipment since then, but the new lane conditions. The pattern at the center we bowl in now is more consistent, and a little easier, than the one we used to bowl on previously.

Now, are my 200+ averages a factor of equipment? I don't think so. Knowledge? Eh, not really, as I'm pretty much the same bowler as I was 6 years ago in terms of knowledge with a retooled game. More forgiving pattern? Certainly. I often find myself with a minimum of 2-3 boards to shoot at on any given night. At the old bowling center, 2-3 boards was a gift, and it was more often a 1-2 board shot at best. I would go out of town with my sub 200 averages and easily hold a 210 average for a 9-game series.

15 years ago when pancake weight blocks and urethane covers dominated the market, I was still a 195+ average bowler as a junior, but I will admit that my knowledge and my game are much more expansive and better now than then. Had I known then what I know now I could've been in the 200+ range with little effort. The difference now is not so much sparemaking, because I've been pretty solid in making spares for the past 15 years, but now it's striking. I make better adjustments faster, read the pins better, and don't get upset when I'm behind a 200 pace on the scoresheet because I have the confidence to bring a 60 in the 4th to above 200 by making adjustments.

When it comes to equipment, only the knowledge of the bowler will make the difference. I can drill up a $250 ball for someone who averages 140 and they might raise their average 2-3 pins, but if I give it to someone who averages in the 190 range with a wealth of knowledge who just needs a little more movement to the pocket, their average will increase by 10, maybe 15 pins.

Certainly the equipment today compared with 15 years ago have increased the options a bowler has, and makes it easier to match up to varying lane conditions, but I will always contend that it is the bowler, not the ball, that makes all the difference. You give the good bowler a better tool and they will be a better bowler. You give the average bowler a better tool and they will still be average if they don't know how to use it.

To me, it's that simple.
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#37575 - 01/01/07 07:02 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Brian Longo]
lorok Offline
Team USA Hopeful

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 482
A/S/L: 30/male/albuquerque
I think if mr. 140 and mr. 190 both upgrade from plastic to new, high tech equipment they would both have a large jump in average. Perhaps even a larger jump for mr. 140.... assuming they are both bowling on an easy walled shot. If they were both bowling a sport/pro shot I doubt it would help mr. 140 at all. There's a reason he's at 140, he cannot repeat shots and can't make many spares. Put a high hooking ball in his hands on a hard shot and I bet he would become worse. While mr. 190 is at 190 with a plasic ball obviously possesses fundamentals, can repeat & make spares and he would most likely be able to take advantage of the new ball even on a hard shot. The jump in average might not be as dramatic as on the walled shot, but still impressive in my theory.

This theory goes along with the statement that others have already made, the lane condition is the equalizer. A new ball in the hands of a poor bowler will not help as much on a hard condition as on an easy one. If you wish for a return of a 200 par, changing the condition will make it fair for everyone; while allowing those skilled enough to utilize them to take advantage of newer bowling ball technology. There is no reason to stunt the growth of our sport by sending it back 50 years technologically, when we can foster a new environment of shot-making and skill by taking away this adult bumper bowling we have now.
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#37612 - 01/02/07 01:04 PM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: lorok]
General Pounder Offline
Legend

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 1396
A/S/L: 33/M/Tinley Park, IL
Whenever people talk about bowling scores today, I think that it is 2 things. The technology in the bowling balls, and the lane conditions.

When I was a freshman in college in my first intercollegiate tourney, one of the guys on the team was crushing the pocket. He kept leaving backrow pins and 4 pins. He was throwing a yellow dot (old ball but still decent in 1993). One of the other guys took the ball and put his hand in it. He told him to try his T-Shark because they had the same span/finger sizes. He threw the next 7 strikes. He went from a 180 bowler (high series in the low 600s) to a 220 bowler within 2 years. He has since then had multiple 300 games and 800 series (862 I think is his highest).

Resin helped him out a great deal. But it was also the lane conditions. I spoke with the guy who oils my house about doing a sport league or something with a tougher condition. He said that he would love to but he couldn't. He couldn't get enough people to fill it, and it would cost too much to strip the lanes for that league, then strip it again for normal play. Most league bowlers are so consumed with bowling high scores/averages, that they don't really know how to bowl. Houses put out easier conditions to get people in the door. That has left "real bowlers" looking at the sport as too easy and they stop bowling.

Right now I average 215 bowling 1 night a week with very little if any practice. 10 years ago when I was bowling college tourneys, I was bowling 50-100 games a week and averaging around 200. What has changed since then? Technology has advanced but normal house conditions have gotten much easier. Like Lorok said, we all can't go back to throwing Manhatten Rubbers. But houses need to do something other than putting out a piano wire to the pocket to get scores up.
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#38067 - 01/08/07 06:15 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: General Pounder]
bowlerjim Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 7
A/S/L: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Many here have the view that the problem of out of control high scores can be solved by not doing anything with the balls but just make the conditions tougher. My wife works with a bowler that lives 5 minutes from a alley but drives clear accross town to bowl on a soft shot because she says "they know how tho do the lanes and the alley by her does not." Translation she wants to go where she will have a blocked shot and get high honor scores then brag to people that she is a 180 avg bowler when in reality 20 years ago she was probably a 155 avg bowler who had never bowled a 600. The sad thing was back then she worked harder and practiced more to keep that 155 avg. Now she pulls out her resin ball once a week misses her mark by 3 to 5 boards and still strikes. I realize tough lanes can even make the best balls scores go down. But most league bowlers will take the easy way out instead of battle a sport shot. In our town of 150,000 one sport league was tried then it folded. As long as the ABC continues to reward high scores on easy lanes people will go to the softest shot. Im just saying in my era of plastic and rubber you knew when you saw a high avg or high score the bowler had talent and worked for it and was respected now they are not.

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#38073 - 01/08/07 09:15 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: bowlerjim]
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1278
A/S/L: 34/M/Hampstead, NC
Originally Posted By: bowlerjim
Many here have the view that the problem of out of control high scores can be solved by not doing anything with the balls but just make the conditions tougher.

That's certainly my contention. As someone who's done lanes before, I can tell you from first-hand experience that 95% of scoring is due to the shot. I can lay out shot that would make my mother capable of shooting a 700, but I can also lay out a shot that would deflate the egos of some of these "230 average" bowlers.

Originally Posted By: bowlerjim
My wife works with a bowler that lives 5 minutes from a alley but drives clear accross town to bowl on a soft shot because she says "they know how tho do the lanes and the alley by her does not." Translation she wants to go where she will have a blocked shot and get high honor scores then brag to people that she is a 180 avg bowler when in reality 20 years ago she was probably a 155 avg bowler who had never bowled a 600. The sad thing was back then she worked harder and practiced more to keep that 155 avg. Now she pulls out her resin ball once a week misses her mark by 3 to 5 boards and still strikes. I realize tough lanes can even make the best balls scores go down. But most league bowlers will take the easy way out instead of battle a sport shot. In our town of 150,000 one sport league was tried then it folded. As long as the ABC continues to reward high scores on easy lanes people will go to the softest shot. Im just saying in my era of plastic and rubber you knew when you saw a high avg or high score the bowler had talent and worked for it and was respected now they are not.

That's the way of the world. People want "easy" because they either don't have the time to work for it or don't want to work for it. The woman you talk about is a perfect example of it. "Instant gratification." Our society has become more lazy than it was 30 years ago. Sure, honor scores and averages have become so skewed that it's hard to tell the good bowler who bowls on a tougher shot from the mediocre bowler who bowls on an easy shot, but it doesn't take me but a short time to see with my own eyes who is a good bowler and who isn't.
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25+ years bowling, 8 years "behind the counter"
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#38077 - 01/08/07 09:44 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Brian Longo]
Dennis Michael Offline
Legend

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 3355
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
" it doesn't take me but a short time to see with my own eyes who is a good bowler and who isn't."

You're right Brian. You can definitely tell the difference just by watching. And, those people who think they are Elite, are the first ones to complain when the oil is heavier.

This tells you who is better.

The bowlers who bowl more tournaments realize the difference in the shot. High average House Shot bowlers, don't, and probably don't care.
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#38079 - 01/08/07 10:00 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Dennis Michael]
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1278
A/S/L: 34/M/Hampstead, NC
That's why when we used to have house tournaments at the one my wife and I used to work at, none of the "good bowlers" from other centers around wanted to bowl in them because they know that a) we had a tough shot and b) their 200+ average from their center was good for, maybe, 175-185. It's a whole lot easier to average 200+ when you have 4+ boards to shoot at instead of 2.

It was fun, too, to go over to their centers and cash and win their tournaments with my "sandbagged" 195 average. They were stupid enough to run 90% of 220 tournaments, but when you're getting 22 sticks and shooting 680+ when they're struggling to hit 660 with their near-cap averages, you can't help but cash. After a while, they re-rated me to 220 and I quit going. I took enough of their money and bruised enough of their egos anyhow. smile
_________________________
Brian Longo
25+ years bowling, 8 years "behind the counter"
as a mechanic, "laneman" and in the pro shop
--"Even the expert was once a beginner"--
--"There are no magical balls, just magical bowlers"--

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#38099 - 01/08/07 11:34 AM Re: Make 200 par again [Re: Brian Longo]
Atochabsh Online   content
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 4148
A/S/L: 42/F/California
Quote:
As long as the ABC continues to reward high scores on easy lanes people will go to the softest shot.


The award system as shrunk dramatically. Especially for women with the merger. There were awards the ladies program provided both Nationally and locally that are now defunct due to the merger.

Also if you are familiar with the award system you'll notice that there are fewer and fewer awards to receive once you get over 180 average. Plus those awards are tougher to get. The 180 average bowler has to shoot an honor award (298, 299, 300)to get a high game award. They have to shoot a 700 or 800 to get a series award, nothing lower. Plus those awards are only given out once a year. And the ring quality has diminished. Once you get over 210 there are even fewer awards available because even the 700 patch is now out of your range.

On the other hand lower average bowlers <100 to 160 averages, have more awards available to them. The 140, 160, 180 and 200 game patches flow out of our office like water. A bit slower are the series patches like 400, 500 and 600. But the 180 average bowler is not eligible for any of those. Not even the 600 series. A 180 average bowler would have to shoot 160 pins over average series to get an award. When was the last time you did that?

I think this is fine. It keeps the lower average bowlers interested by celebrating their achievements. Remember it takes baby steps to get better, even if you think the lanes are too easy or the balls too dynamic. Its probably a way USBC came up with to try to keep the bowling population up. They probably figure the 180+ bowler is already a bowling addict, so they don't need to work as hard to keep them involved.

I don't really believe its the idea of getting a patch or pin or even a ring that lures bowlers to easier houses. Its sheer enjoyment of seeing all 10 pins fly off the deck. Pure and simple.

Erin


Edited by Atochabsh (01/08/07 11:36 AM)

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