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#38199 - 01/08/07 10:42 PM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Lefont]
Lefont Offline
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Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 187
A/S/L: 35/M/Atlanta
Thanks Erin. I appreciate your opinion. I wouldn't want to hurt my mental game by losing confidence on a more challenging league. So that's something I need to consider.
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Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
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#38204 - 01/08/07 11:35 PM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Lefont]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
As long as you do not use this league as a replacement for coaching or some other teaching method. It can be really tough, confusing and exasperating. But it will reward perfectly executed shots. Knowing all you did to achieve that perfectly executed shot is up to you, the condition will not tell you. If you are not at the point where you know what you do right when a shot strikes or what you did wrong when it doesn't (on a house shot), this type of league can be detrimental, IMO. None of us can always exectute perfectly, but knowing what you did to cause the ball to react the way it did (for good or for bad) is a big stepping stone in skill level. There's very little luck involved in a Sport pattern but its still out there. Its just much less then on a house shot.

The Sport League I bowled in was horrendous. It made the National men's touranment shot look like a walk in the park. But it also was virtually unplayable. We had several PBA guys in the league. I addition to that, a few of those were also averaging over 240 on a house shot, including a senior player. And NO ONE in our league averaged over 190, no one shot over 650 all season.

Erin

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#38209 - 01/09/07 12:57 AM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Lefont]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9820
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
The thing I like about these shots is the challenge they present. As Erin said, it lets you know what you have to work on, speed, release, etc. This is the challenge that a house shot doesn't give you.
If you don't have the experience to read the lanes, and the results, it could be very frustrating. In trying to read this, I was fortunate that a friend bowled with me and he was more knowledgeable at reading than I. This greatly helped me read the shot and attempt to adjust. And, I mean attempt, because it didn't take me just one ball. I often lost a few frames just trying to find the better approach.
This was challenging and great fun.

We are already putting together a team to enter a pba-experience league in our area. The house has scheduled a few nights over the next few months to let those interested try it out. This will also give them an idea of the number of interested bowlers. There was a fear that they wouldn't have enough to last the term. It is a risk to the house.
As I understand it, they will keep a pattern for a few weeks, then change. This will be done on a schedule and the bowlers will know what pattern they will face.
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#38215 - 01/09/07 03:39 AM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Dennis Michael]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Quote:
As Erin said, it lets you know what you have to work on, speed, release, etc.


ONLY If you have the knowledge already in place to interpret your ball path and nearly every physical movement in your bowling game. When you throw a ball on a Sport or PBA league nothing comes up on a telescorer that tells you, you threw the ball too fast, your feet were too fast, you drifted one board to the right, you grabbed the ball on the upswing, or you missed your primary target by 1/2 board. Because without a basis of this knowledgge when you do strike, how will you know what you did right? Did you execute perfectly? Or,did you do three things right that cancelled out one bad thing? If you cannot tell these things on a house shot it will be even harder and more confusing on a Sport or PBA league shot.

The basic premis is that perfectly executed shots will be rewarded. Well we already know that even on a house shot very good shots do not always get rewarded. This still holds true on Sport or PBA shots. Sometimes very good shots will not get rewarded and others will. Sometimes even the best of players will not be able to interpret the leave. If you cannot interpret the inconsistencies in your game on a house shot you will not be able to do so on these conditions. It will be like looking for a needle in a haystack. YOu will see the result but without good coaching and interaction with other knowledgable eyes on your game (and in a leauge format this may not be available at all) it is very difficult to analyse every shot.

However it will give you a very good idea of how good the PBA folks are and how versital and consistent they are even under the worst of times.

Erin

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#38218 - 01/09/07 07:55 AM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Atochabsh]
Brandon510 Offline
Legend

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 1990
A/S/L: 28/Male/California/Philippines
We have one of these leagues starting at my home center. its mid winter league so just from Jan to May. I only bowled on Sport pattern a couple times. I might go there monday night after oil the lanes and see how the shot is for fun of it. I went there yesterday, monday, and this guy who joined the league was asking the laneman what pattern will they use next week when the league starts. The lanemans said he doesnt know.

They Did advertise this league as PBA Experience League Bowl on same conditions as the pro. For bowlers who want a more challenging atmosphere and to improve your game to the next level.
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#38219 - 01/09/07 08:55 AM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Lefont]
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2356
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: Lefont
I usually start my practice standing at 17 board. I throw at 10 board with a moderate amount of revs. I usually move left as it dries up all the way to 22.

Sometimes when all else fails I throw down and in from the 5 board and I adjust speed.


OK, on the typical house shot, it will look something like this:



There's a heavy concentration of oil in the middle of the lane and it's fairly dry outside 10. If you hit 11, the ball sits in the oil a little longer and slides. If you hit 9, it gets to the dry sooner and hooks a little more.

Now, on a PBA pattern, there will probably be less oil in the middle of the lane, but more outside 10.



What this means is that when you miss right, it's generally going to stay right. And when you miss left, it's going to go through the head pin. There is a little help, but no where near what most people are used to. There are also different patterns that will play in different ways.

I think the key is to set your expectations appropriately. You need to go in knowing that you're going to miss the head pin more that you've done in the past. You should also expect to think you made a good shot and have a result that says otherwise. For most people, their first time bowling on a non house shot is humbling. I think the key is to look at the results of shots and try to figure out what it tells you instead of being unhappy that you didn't throw more strikes.

For me, I appreciate the immediate feedback the lane gives me on tougher conditions. You can get away with so much on easier shots and end up with bad habits. On conditions like this, you know when you make a bad shot.

Again, if you go in with the right aditude, you'll be fine, and after a while you'll get it figured out.



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#38222 - 01/09/07 10:07 AM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Lefty]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9820
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Good explanation, Lefty. Lefont can see that being on the 10 board of a House shot, he follows the edge of the oil, and it funnels to the pocket. On the PBA Shot, the 10 board starts in the oil, causing his ball to slide early.
You will not get any friction until further down the lane, and your ball will act very erratically, with many variables causing it. This is something the House bowler is not familiar with.

Wouldn't you agree that some of the House success comes from the repetitiveness of the shot? It's the same every night, so one can master it. Whereas, the PBA shot will change to other patterns, some longer. This makes the play more difficult.
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#38243 - 01/09/07 11:13 AM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Dennis Michael]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
When I was watching Jason Couch this weekend in match play, he appeared to be taking copious notes. Since there was a counter right there you really couldn't see into the bowlers' counterspace. The pros have a game plan in place for each pattern. But they realize that from house to house the patterns will play differently. I would assume that most of the pros have a very good knowledge of how the patterns play on particular lane surfaces with particular oils etc.....And if they hit the same house year after year they probably have notes to fall back on from their past experiences. And even then you see some pros excelling on particular patterns and others not.

I agree you Dennis that the bowlers become accostomed to a condition which then eventually they learn to score on. But as you gain experience, you add variations to your game. On these PBA Experience leagues I don't think your 200 average one house bowler will be able to master the patterns in the short time allouted, before the pattern changes. What I've seen in the Steve Cook Classic league (which is not sport compliant but changes every 1/3rd) is that about 1/3 of the bowlers are good enough to adapt right away when they switch patterns. Another 1/3+ adjust within a couple weeks. And the remainder which I would guesstimate as being less then 1/3, never get a particular pattern, but excell on others. These players all can average well over 220 on a house shot.

But I think 'master' is not a great word for this. Because these patterns are not made to be mastered, especially by non pros. So I think the idea of how many times did I hit the pocket and what did I do to get there is a better way to look at it. Maybe just keeping the ball on the correct side of the pins would also be a good goal, no Brooklyns. Score is just that and you should not look at it, especially in this circumstance. Go into a league like this not to see how much difference there is in score, but rather achieve Execution goals.

With that all said, you can still do the above in regular house shot leagues. Just make your goals more applicable. Like not missing any single pin spares, or your 10 pin conversion rate.

Erin

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#38283 - 01/09/07 06:18 PM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Atochabsh]
Lefont Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 187
A/S/L: 35/M/Atlanta
Thanks guys. This is great information. Now I'm more confused though. LOL.

Like Erin said, at a 170 average, I'm still missing spares here and there, which it is a goal of mine right now. I have improved my 10 pin conversion rate greatly though.

I am able to read the lanes fairly good, but again, in a house shot that I've been bowling for a while now; and that with a few exceptions(I mean "one of those days") it's much more predictable.

I'm definetely not planning to replace coaching with this. But I would like to learn something out of this. If it's not going to help my game, I may need to stay away from it. At least for now.

I still have a few days to think it over though.



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MoRich Awesome Hook - 14#
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#38287 - 01/09/07 06:49 PM Re: PBA Experience Leagues [Re: Lefont]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Quote:
If it's not going to help my game, I may need to stay away from it. At least for now.


That's just my opinion. I know a lot of people would disagree.

But when I joined a sanctioned Sport league I was averaging over 200 in two different houses. I was bowling weekend local tournaments; 8 gamers, 10 gamers etc. And though I expected a drop in score and the shot to be challenging, I really wasn't knowledgable or versital enough to get much out of it, at the time. The experience made me doubt every motion from the approach to the foul line. Even at 200+ I was not ready for the environment. It was not a guided or tutoured experience, it was competition and very rough.

Since then I have bowled in various sport and "tournament" shots and yet NONE have ever been as challenging as that league shot.

Erin

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