Mary Ellen
I have found a pair of instructors in my neighborhood at the classic bowl in Morton Grove.
The question I have is not if there good or not,
but if you know either of them. I saw them friday
and I think they can help me. The lady is Patty
Ann Tarpley and husband Cliff professional coach
and ball driller. He is also hall of famer. I am
getting lessons from them this wednsday or friday. I am sure there good but if you know of
them I would appreciate a line or two. thanks
bowling joel

Unfortunately, Joel I've never heard of either coach, but knowing that they're hall of famers has some weight to their credibility. I wouldn't hurt to give these people a try and experience for yourself of if they're style of coaching will benefit your game. Good luck there Joel with your new coaches. Pay attention and work on what they suggest that you work on and you'll be fine. Please by all means let me know of how these coaches work for you.

Mary Ellen
I had my lesson yesterday and boy what I learnd.
First they set up lanes to not keep score. Then the one taking a lesson shoots for 1 hour straight
the coaches walk around and check to see what the
students are doing. I was not posting my shots and
they said very important. Boy were they right. I
started posting and strung 5 in a row strikes and
had 1 rail and picked up my spares. Cliff said to
me your feet can't go left and right when you do
approach. Make off your are pushing wheelbarrel.
That worked strung another four. Also worked for
spares. Then moved me around lane to shoot from
different angle.A couple more of these and I may
be a star before season starts in sep. Will keep
you posted. bowling joel

Joel thanks for keeping me informed with your progress with your new coaches. I hope that you learned a lot and took notes. I would work on whatever they had you to work on the lanes so that it becomes your muscle memery. posting your shot is indeed very important and it really results in good timing to the lane. I don't know how many steps that you take in your approach, but work on your timing so that you can consistantly post your shots also gives you great leverage to your shots as well. You're stepping into the right direction of improving your game just work on what you learned and keep up with the lessons there Joel.

Mary Ellen
As far back as i can remember I was a 5 step bowler. Then during my bowling life I changed to
4 steps and about 10 years ago went back to 5. That is where I am now a five step bowler. Do you think I should experiment with 4 again with this
new knowledge or just keep 5 steps. thanks very
much for your help. bowling joel

Joel,

There is a good reason why I advocate 4 steps. When you teach a raw beginner, you teach him 4 steps since it is the easiest appraoch to learn. Now, since this is a game of repeating shots, would it not be easier to repeat shots with 4 steps instead of 5,6,7,8 or more steps?

And good luck with your lessons.

I think the 4 step approach is the easiest to learn, because there's movement in every step. I had once had timing problems with my 4 step and went to a 5 step and did ok. But then I really hit a prolonged slump and decided to go back to a 4 step and everything fell into place and decided to never toy with my approach ever again. If I were you I would experiment in practice with the 4 and 5 step approach and see which one do you feel the most comfortable with. In other words to see which approach would your timing be the most consistant with. With the 5 step approach your pushaway has to begin on the second step. Whereas the 4 step approach your pushaway has to start on the first step. Please let me know what works out for you the best. Best regards, Mary Allen.

Mary Allen,

There has to be a reason why John Jowdy teaches the 4 step approach. Its simple, and its easy to repeat. I like to keep this game as simple as I can. It makes it a lot easier to repeat shots. Jowdy took Parker from a 5 step to a 4 step approach early in his career. The result was a HOF career. He did the same for Mike Alby. Lest someone misunderstand me, I'm not saying you can't repeat shots using other than a 4 step approach, its just that too many things can go wrong if you use a complicated approach.

What do I mean by a complicated approach? For instance, if you wrap your arm behind your back, and then unwrap it to throw the ball, yes you can repeat shots, but its going to be a lot harder to do so than someone who has a simplier armswing. If you have a lot of head movement while you release the ball, again, its going to be problematic when and if you encounter a demanding lane condition. Again, you can repeat shots, but its going to be a lot harder. And also easier for things to get out of time...

Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now

ExBron Bowler I agree with you to a certain extent, but you have to keep in mind that every bowler is different and has different body rhythums. So what a 4 step approach may work for me may not work for someone else. Earl Anthony had a 5 step approach and he's a legend. Heck I've seen some pros do a 6 or even 7 step delivery, but that's only a few. Everybody has different body types and structures so that's something that a coach has to keep in mind when teaching beginner bowlers. I have 8 students that I teach and only 3 of my students are 5 steppers and the remaining 5 are 4 steppers. What I work with is how a bowler approaches the line in relation to where the ball is to the body and I go from there. That's what experimentation in practice is for- you try different things when working on one thing. I totally agree with the 4 step approach is the easiest approach to learn, because also it's easier to detect timing problems such as the ball getting ahead of one's body and the bowler ends up pulling the ball across one's body. With the 4 step approach you can find where the error in timing lies.

There are set protocols for what is easiest to perform in order to advance in this game.

If you have a game that deviates too far from the "norm", you will have to work harder to repeat motions. That's just a simple fact. I've seen people that have turned 360 degrees upon releasing the ball. I've seen people that turn 180 degrees and curtsey at the line. I've seen people that have used their whole body including both arms to throw the ball down the lane. The more you deviate from what is considered (by the experts) as being normal, the harder it will be to repeat that motion each time.

So trying to keep your approach and delivery as simple as possible has its advantages. Too many unnecessary motions and there's too much margin for error. Such as drifting 10+ boards. Fighting over whether a 4 or 5 step approach is best is not really getting you anywhere. The bowler has to be able to repeat the motion. If 5 steps is easier to repeat then that's fine. In any approach, you have to keep your steps in cadence. So if you find that 4 steps leads you to taking too big a steps and you are out of time, a 5 step might take care of that. On the other hand, a 5 step approach may lead you to rushing the line, too many steps to fit into to short a space. A good coach will find out what cadence (4 or 5 step) is best for their student.

If changing from a 4 step to a 5 step is causing more problems then its solving, then go back to 4 steps and work on other aspects of your game.

Erin

I'll watch my students and see how they walk. If they are right handed and start off walking on the left foot every time I will set them into a 5 step approach. It is the natural way they walk and more comfortable. If they put the right foot forward first then I'll set them up in a 4 step approach. With many bowlers it is easier not to fight nature and go with something they are doing already. After that posture and timing are adjusted. I coach a lot of high school students that have never bowled in their lives. Keeping things simple and consistent are the keys. Also explaining in a manner they can relate to is a must. There is nothing better than to have one of them come off the approach shaking their head and saying " that really worked ".

Smash49

I know a NJ Hall of Famer who
1) Bowls off the wrong foot
2) Hops about 10 boards right when he throws the ball and lands on both feet

Would I change him? No, since he repeats shots very well. He actually has a great armswing and release. And his stats are real good... Somehow he has found a way to repeat shots, and I mean on demanding lane conditions... I consulted with him when I took on a student who physically could not bowl the traditional way... The goal is to incorporate a more or less traditional armswing and release into his existing approach. His entire right side is weak. Mostly I've shown him how to line up and to relax his arm more so he can repeat shots, and to walk straighter.

Again, I try to keep his movements as simple as possible, within his phsyical limitations.

Mary Ellen
Erin and all others who are trying to help. I so
much appreciate this that you can't possible know
I good I feel. I will bowl on friday. I will do
both 5 and 4 steps and see what if any difference
there is with the things I learned on tuesday. I
have used both 4 and 5 steps and really think I
can do both well. I do however want just one system. I will try both and see what comes of it.
I will let all know what happened. I beleive it
will be wonderful no matter which works the best.
bowlers who try hard to succeed and have this much
help cannot fail. bowling joel

Joel, your enthusiasm is always enlightening. However, I don't think its a good idea to go back and forth, back and forth. The whole idea is to get an approach that is comfortable and repeatable. If you go back and forth and back and forth, I don't see how this will help you develope a rhythm/cadence and repeatability for either 4 or 5 step. I would maybe take a logical approach. Use one or the other for the summer. Be very honest and write a journal of the advantages and disadvantages you find. Then by the time summer is done, if you still want to try to other approach, repeat the process. But you have to get one or the other well established in your muscle memory in order to go on to advance other aspects of your game.

Erin

Erin
Mary Ellen
Well this is what happen today. I started off slow
as in the first game I was not doing all the moves
I was shown. 134, the next game I got the rythum
and shot 210 with tenth frame triple. The third
game i did the same and did ok also 181. I did
use four steps and it was easier to maintain the
cadence. I have now switched to 4 steps and will
stick to it. The spares are easier to shoot and
the pulling to the left has stopped almost all-
together. My next report should and will be better. Thanks to all once again. bowling joel

sorry for all the dumb questions , but what is "posting your shot"

ending up in a position where your knee is over your foot, your chin is over over your chin, and your trail leg is behind you at a about a 45 degree angle, and your non-sliding foot toe is in contact with the approach. and you HOLD IT until the ball hits the pins...

Num 1 contender
Hi two weeks ago I had a lesson from two coaches,
one hall of famer from pba of 50,s and 60,s name of
fahey his name is charlie and his wife is patty.
They tell you to bowl for 1 hour and that you have to post your shot, all of them. When going
for strikes or spares. They had ten students and
would go from bowler to bowler to make sure that
is what they were doing. I bowled approximately
5 games. In three of those games I had 3 five baggers and three three baggers. The scorers were
set for no scoring. I am taking another lesson this week. Cost 12.00 dollars. The lady patty said I will make you a 190 in three lessons. With
anyone else it would cost 225.00. She has 190 average. If you have questions I am bowling joel

Also included in posting a shot, is the idea of balance at the line. Posting is more then just balance, but I believe balance is the basic main component of posting a shot. This means that there is no hopping at the line, no stepping off, or falling off to the side.

Joel, sounds like you found a great avenue for some quality lessons. Enjoy!

Erin

Erin
Nice to hear from you. Yes I think I hit the jackpot on this one. You are correct about balance
as I fell off to the right cpl times and ball did
not make the pocket.As long as I kept the right
hand pointed at the target through the whole shot I hit what I was aiming at.
bowling joel

Num 1 Contender
Yesterday I sent some notes about two pro bowlers
about posting your shot. I made an error in their
names. The National Hall of Famer is Cliff Tarpley
and the pro bowler is Patty Ann Tarpley. I don't
know if you are familar with these two but as I
told you I had a wonderful lesson from them and
will probably do one more. bowling joel

I RECCOMMEND THAT IF YOU AR IN THE AREA O FPATTY ANN AND CLIFF TARPLEY YOU USE THEM WISELY. TO ME THE ARE THE BEST FRIENDS I HAVE HAD AND ARE THE BEST INSTRUCTORS IN THE WORLD. IN THE EARLY AND MID 80'S I HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH THEM IN THE Pro Shop AND BECAME A VERY GOOD AND QUALIFIED DRILLER AND INSTRUCTOR AND BOWLER.

I THEN SAW PATTY AT THE 2001 US OPEN AND WE HAD A GREAT WEEK OF REUNION TIME. THEY ARE THE TWO MOST DEDICATED PEOPLE THAT I KNOW TO THE GAME AND THEY HAVE ALWAYS TREATED ME LIKE FAMILY. CLIFF IS LIKE A 2ND FATHER TO ME AND PATTY LIKE MY SISTER.

I RECCOMEND YOU TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH THEM YOU WILL BENIFIT.

I CAN'T SAY ENOUGH FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR ME AND I LOVE THEM BOTH AND THEY ARE THE BEST

Ray B
Well that just completes the picture. I had a lesson from them two weeks ago and it was wonderful. I am now picking up most of my spares
and am finding the 1/3 pocket on a regular basis.
I bowled tday and had mild success as I just got
back from vaca and had little time to practice what I have learned. I am having another lesson
next tues or wedn. Thanks for the notes and glad
to hear this. bowling joel

Joel

I am very glad that you have had the opportunity to get a lesson from Patty & Cliff they have been very dear friends of mine for over 23 years. Like I said before they have been the reaseon I have had a very satisfying career in the Bowling Industry.

My suggestion to you just concentrate on PRACTICE a lot.

I have had the pleasure of Cliff & patty teaching me the Art of Ball Drilling in 1982 and teaching and Bowling, I worked with them for over 4 years before taking over a couple proshops myself, and I have had the opportunity to work with many pro bowlers men and ladies and I Thank Patty & Cliff for that.

So take what they taught you and use it any questions please e-mail me,

RAY B

Ray B
Hi well i took my second lesson yest. monday. I did pretty good picked up all spares and had many
strikes. They watched me pretty close and gave me
tips on how to keep posted after shot. Cliff had
to remind me to stay at the line as I tended to come back off the line. I quickly stopped that.
After the lesson I shot two practice games. First
game I picked all but two spares and had cple strikes. I was wasn't satisfied so I bowled again.
I told myself I just took two quality lessons and
was going to do well. First game 166 second 1 spare in first frame then strike rail and 9 beauties in a row. 256. I will take one more lesson at least this summer. I felt so good my arm did not hurt and I was throwing a powerful ball without effort. I am a happy camper.bowling joel

Hi there Joel,

Just wanted to say "Keep it up!"
You are definitely a gem in the "Improving Bowlers' Hall of Fame"!
Following your bowling "evolution" has been a real treat over the past 2 years..(since my days as a lurker on this site).

You are an inspiration!
Thanks,
lab

Lab
wow i thought i was happy yesterday when my lesson
went well and then i had 256 with 9 strikes in a
row in a practice game. Now you send that note to
me and i am happy as a lark and that will give me
the incentive to do all the moves i was taught right and just keep doing it. I will take another
lesson this summber and then practice for the up-
coming season of bowling. I bowl in two leagues,
one is a senior league and the other a sunday league which i have a mission. My former teamates
gave me a hard time and i want to punish them. They will find out from my bowling not my mouth.
thanks again lab you are too nice.

You are very lucky to have access to such talented and committed people and also for such a low price. good to hear about the high game.
Its nice to hear about you're rapid improvement, it fills me with hope.

I was reading the earlier posts in this thread and was wondering about the 5 or 4 step argument.

isn't the 5 step just 1 added step to the four step timing/approach? And more importantly what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages of the extra step?

Kelvin
The way it was explained to me is this. If you have short arms the four step approach is good, if
your arms are long you would use 5 steps. The bottom line is, what ever you are comfortable with is the thing you should use. Always practice what you are going to do in league, if it does not work go to the alternate. bowling joel
thanks much for the encouragement. I am in heaven.

Ray B
Had long talk with patta and cliff friday all we
talked about was you. They want to know if they
know who you are, what is last name. thanks bowling joel

JOEL

RAY BROCCARDO, FROM SPRINGFIELD, ILL. I AM NOW IN SAN ANTONIO TEXAS WORKING GIVE THEM MY NUMBER 210- 255-0257. CLIFF TOUGHT ME TO DRILL.
THANKS RAY

Ray B
thanks for the response. I will get this to cliff
and patty tomorrow on friday. They will be happy
to hear from you. They are by far the best coaches
I have encountered. My first series since the two
lessons was not 600 but not bad for a new beggining. 581
I will keep in touch
bowling joel aka joel

Ray B
I gave your name and tel nbr to patty and cliff,
they will call you sap. They were so happy they almost jumped out of their skin. Today I had another good series. 183-168-205 556 I now have
185 average in just three weeks after lessons I
received. Will chat latter. bowling joel

joal

thank you they are so important to me cliff gave confidence that i never had , and as i frew in the bowling world it has helped.

i have been in the cemetery industry 12 years and i took 3 years off and went to vegas i had the opportunity to teach bowling again i went to the ladies us open and saw patty and i was still known as a driller.

it was funny because i valeted for patty for the tounament and a lot of the girls said it remined them like the early 80's when i would go to tournaments with patty. i told them i had to use the bags with the wheels because 40 year old ball boys get old,

thanks for telling them i will look forward to the call. keep up the work on the bowling. they are the best. just remember there is nothing better than practice and common sence.

cliff is the best, if cliff told me that if i have to drink a gallon of liquer and smoke a carton of ciggeretts to bowl good, i would thats how much confidence i have in them

keep up the good work

thanks again

ray B

Ray B
today i did a little better then last fri. today
i shot 213-157-200 for 190 average. I lost the line in 2nd game and did not know what to do to
find it. I was up the middle but went to far right
and the oil was too heavy and I did not realize it.
last game i moved two boards left and was back home again for that sweet spot. I should be ready
for the fall and winter this year. bowling joel

Ray B
Mary Ellen
I have been bowling on friday with a bunch of oldies but goodies from a new league that I have
joined for coming season.I say goodies as I do not
regard these men as oldies as they throw the ball
as hard as I do and some harder. I started with 175 average in june I now am averageing 190 and
was told by the coaches that I would be 190 at the end of summer. Tomorrow I bowl again and can't wait. I bowled this wedn two games with the same men as on friday and shot 190 and 205. My delivery is near perfect as I do miss target once in awhile. I am happy to tears as to where I am now with my bowling. I will email again soon.
bowling joel Climbing the ladder to 200 average. :p

Joel I'm so darn proud of how your game is really progressing. Personally, I'm so sorry that I've haven't been posting here on this forum like I usually do. This is all because I've been working third shift Saturday thru Wednesday and I do every now and then check and read posts here when I have the strength. I really miss interacting with everyone here, especially you Joel. Coaching can really make a big difference and I'm VERY happy for you that you have taken the advice that everybody and myself have given you to see a coach. And do you see how well you're progressing? I hope so, because from what I've been reading it really sounds like you're really on the ball with your game. So I strongly urge you to keep up the good work in improving and keep up with having a positive attitude and you'll reach whatever goals that you set out to acomplish in this great game of bowling.

Joel,

You are in the best hands imaginable with Cliff and Patty. They understand the physics of bowling, timing, release, better than anyone you will ever meet. If you would do me a favor.....let them know that Jeff Balacek from Wisconsin says "hi" and that I told you that they are "without a doubt the greatest instructors I have EVER met." You are fortunate to have them available to you! If you trust them with your game, they will make you as good as you drive yourself to become. Please let me know their reaction when you tell them I said "hi"! Thanks and best of luck to you!!

Jeff B
Consider it done. I will see them on monday and
will tell them you sent me an email with nothing
but good tidings and a howdy from wis. As for me
I am as happy as two peas in a pod. I started bowling this summer with members of a new team that I will be on in sept. on thur afternoon league. We bowl at classic bowl in Morton Grove
where I live. My average last year was 175, since i have been bowling with these fellows my average for the summer is almost 190. How you say because of patty and cliff. I have had two lessons and have shot more two hundred games then I did all last season. They are as you say the greatest. My confidence level went from 0 to 100 in just two lessons. Thanks for you confidence. bowling joel aka joel

Mary Ellen
You must not work so hard. I knew something was funny when I did not hear from you. I am so confident in my bowling now I think I can do just
about anything. They have showed me something I did not know existed. The style is the greatest and the power generated without any effort is to me amazing. I get explosive strikes and pick up my
spares like a pro. These people I bowl with are up
in their years (just some of them) and have averages I was only dreaming about. Now with what
patty and cliff have shown me I can conquere the
bowling world if I want to. bowling joel
P.S. dont work so hard and I will email soon. joel

Joel,

When I first met Patty and Cliff I was about 8 years old sliding on the wrong foot. My dad owned a center and I loved to bowl. I studied as much as I could under them from a distance as we were MANY miles apart and quickly into my preteen years was WELL ahead of many adult bowlers. I became more dedicated to bowling in my teen years, visiting Patty and Cliff to sharpen my skills and was averaging well into the 200s by 14-15 ish. I did bowl 15-20 games a day, was very dedicated, but it pays off. to sum things up, by the time I was done in juniors and having the opportunity to ba around Patty and Cliff for a couple years in person, I was averaging into the 220-230 range, had an 854 and was cruising along a path to bowling success. It was a few life changing events that seperated me from bowling, but nothing but amazing praise should be given to Patty and Cliff. The are truly two of the most gifted instructors in the industry. They teach the basics of bowling better than anyone you will EVER meet and it will be up to you to decide how far you want to take you career. I am so thrilled to hear about them and that they are still helping others in their bowling endeavors. Cliff taught me life lessons as well as bowling lessons and was VERY instrumental in my life in more ways than he could EVER know. Patty was always helpful, open, competitive and pushed me to improve all the time. Good luck and I look forward to hearing from you!!!!

Jeff B
Hello, I gave them the msg that you have given me
and they want to get your phone number and were you are at at this time. I will see them on friday and will give them your nbr. They said you
are one of their students and cant believe they can now get in touch with you through me. It's great to see their faces as I told them and then
gave them the note. I will be listening to them
a lot more and trying to get better.
Thanks for the message. will email you again soon
bowling joel

Joel,

Thank you so much for being the "messenger" in this! Considering we have never met personally, I want to thank you for passing on my message. Reading your posts, it sounds like you are excited about your new skills, honing them in. Once you get consistant in your timing and comfortable with all the changes you are making, you will begin to understand how to move around the lane better and how you react to lanes changing.....which I am sure you already know. If you ever would like some advice or questions you may have not gotten the chance to ask Patty or Cliff, I would be happy to share whatever I can.

If you would, give my # to them....608-792-5923. Let them know it's my Cell phone and they can call anytime during the day as I have it with me. My evenings are pretty busy with my kids (which they probably don't know that I have) so daytime is best to reach me!

As I said before, they are the best.....bar none. I have read onlinesome people that have run into them and don't agree with some of what they teach, but I have been in the sport at a VERY high level for many many years and there is nobody that I have met that can make an average bowler better, a good bowler great, a great bowler Elite. I have been around them to know the likes of David Ozio, Jeff Carter, wouldn't be the bowlers they are without them...let alone what they did for my own game, and life.

My personal email is freebingleman@hotmail.com, feel free to send a note anytime! Best of luck to you!

I keep reading about the benefits of getting a coach/lessons. I think it would help me. Anyone know of a good instructor/coach in Tucson, AZ?
Thanks,

Hi,

on Monday I had the opportunity of a 2 hour bowling session with Brian Voss, Mike Machuga and Robert Smith. These 3 guys are on a promotion tour in Germany. It was unbelievable, entertaining, amazing, motivating, incredible, amusing, tremendous, funny, useful, diverting, inspiring ... running out of words ;-)

After the session, while having a couple of beer and talking nuts, I had the idea to spend my next holiday in the US and improve my bowling. Furthermore I'm impressed by the enthusiasm of Joel with his trainers. My thinking goes for a 5 to 10 day trip to Chicago and take some lessons at Classic Bowl in Morton Grove. But I have some questions about that. Is it located in Waukegan Road ? Do they teach bowlers every day? Are there any blackout dates? If it is going to happen I will ask you some more questions ... where to stay ... to eat ... what to do ... etc.

Every answer is more than appreciated.

cu

Jens

Most coaches teach on a bowler to bowler schedule. They are not at the bowl, unless they have a lessons planned. I suppose really popular and busy coaches might be at a center every day, but make sure you have appointments if you want daily lessons.

Otherwise you can sign up for some of the clinics that are held throughout the year in the US. These are usually 3 to 5 day clinics and are sponsered by various bowling industries. For example, Bowling This Month has their Super School. Dick Ritger has similar camps. You can also go to Kegel in Florida.

If you end up in Chicago, its a city just full to the brim of things to do.

Erin

Hi Erin,

thanks for your answer. Yes something like Kegel or Ritger has been suggested by Mike and Robert also. Unfortunately it looks a little bit outside my budget ... but I try to find out what they charge exactly compared to other offers. On the other hand, as far as I understood Joels postings he pays something between $10 and $25 for a group lesson which sounds ok to me and my wallet :-)

cu


Jens

Jens
Well I am flabergasted. I have gotten 2 lessons
from PattyAnn and Cliff Tarpley. They have taken a
n average bowler who finished last season with 175 average and turned him into a monster. I have
been bowling this summer at Classic bowl and I averaging better than 190 so far. I have had two
games so far that I only dreamed about. 2 weeks ago I bowl in practice 256 with 9 in a row and just yesterday wedns I went with a friend to a brunzwick zone and bowled 4 games the last 266 with a turkey and then 6 in a row for the 266.
I must be lined up sooner then I am now doing as I tend to move to middle where all the oil is.
Now for their schedule. They have Pro Shop and they have summer hours. I have their old hours but will get the new ones for you on friday.
I will then email you. They are the best as I have
had. They charge 12.00 and have groups of ten.
You bowl for one hour and they watch your style and give you tips on how to improve it. Until I send you another email on friday think about what you might become. bowling joel aka joel

Jens
I have decided to answer question as to where the
bowling alley is. Yes it is on Waukegan road south
of dempster across the street from a storage area.
I will give you there number. Call around 12.00 noon. 847-663-0085 tell them joel sent you and that you want lessons as you are planning to come
to chgo. I am very happy about this whole thing.
Hope to see you at the alley. bowling joel your
stairway to the stars. ha ha joel

Jeff B
Ok guy I have recd your email and I will see them
tomorrow and give them your # and email add. They<