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#2395 - 04/06/06 01:50 PM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Rolling Pin Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 119
A/S/L: 33/male/Michigan
I agree that accuracy is vital to bowling. However, I have seen PBA power players miss their mark a pinch here or there (or sometimes by quite a bit) and still have enough revs to get back to the pocket and strike. Extra revs give you more room, but applying those extra revs makes it harder to be accurate. But I think it evens out. I think crankers can get away with being less accurate, and I have seen this time and again in tournaments (including the sport shot). There was a PBA tournament a while back where Walter Ray didn't make the round of 32 and said that he wished he had more room like the power players. (It's posted on his website.) I don't think most crankers are as accurate as most strokers, but they typically don't have to be. Crankers still have to hit what they're aiming for, but they have more mistake area. That's just a fact of bowling. I wasn't saying the cranker shot didn't require accuracy, but I was saying that accuracy wasn't quite as important to a cranker because he has more room to work with. Good crankers are accurate, just not in the same precise way a stroker is. There is a difference. I started out as a low rev stroker, and I know the difference. Okay, accuracy is always imporant. I agree. The example I was showing with Wes Malott was intended to prove my point that accuracy isn't quite as important to crankers as it is to strokers, and I stand by that. Anyone who understands the sport of bowling knows higher rev players have more mistake area and don't need to always split boards like a stroker. Perhaps one would have to be a cranker to fully understand what I'm talking about.

And by the way, I agree with Lefty that today's conditions do make it easy to throw sloppy shots and still strike if you can put a few revs on the ball. That's why I don't take it too seriously when I play on those shots, tear up the lanes, and then think that I'm ready for the PBA like some bowlers do. I know some bowlers who average 220+ at easy lanes and think they're ready for the pros. They still miss 50% of their 10 pin spares (or more). I favor moving to more difficult conditions for league and tournament play and making accuracy a priority. This would very quickly shrink the bloated egos of young players with 200 averages that spray the ball all over the place and think they're the next Earl Anthony. I myself wouldn't be affected too much by this, since as I mentioned, the lanes I play on already demand accuracy.

Sorry, I am getting long winded and repeating myself. Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing.

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Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#2396 - 04/06/06 02:47 PM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I favor moving to more difficult conditions for league and tournament play and making accuracy a priority. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA"> I don't think most crankers are as accurate as most strokers, but they typically don't have to be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">OK now I'm confused. Now you say accuracy is a priority? I thought you meant that revs and power were more important and that accuracy didn't matter as much if you had more revs and power.

So I'm not a cranker and don't understand the cranker mind. But I'm trying and if I'm getting it, it goes something like this...."don't bother getting more accurate (as accurate as possible) because my revs and power will always bail me out, even on a PBA shot." How then does a cranker get better? How do they go from the 180s-190s to 220+? Because I see a lot of 160 to 190 average bowlers cranking the ball. Just add more power and revs? If so and you are already revving has hard as you can, how do you get more?

Erin

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#2397 - 04/06/06 03:33 PM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Rolling Pin Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 119
A/S/L: 33/male/Michigan
I'm glad you're trying to understand the cranker mind. I didn't get in to the stroker shot too much, so I'm certainly no expert on the stroker game. I think in my long winded posts I may not have explained things the way I should have, so I'll try to explain what I think in a more precise manner.

I do NOT believe a cranker needs to be as accurate as a stroker on some lane conditions, and typically so, because the cranker has more mistake area.

I DO believe a good cranker is an accurate bowler that can hit what he's aiming for. A bad cranker just sprays the ball and relies on his revs to do the work. Such a cranker will fail miserably if lane conditions call for an accurate shot where high revs aren't enough to overpower the lanes, such as many sport and PBA shots.

I favor going to lane conditions that demand accuracy because I'd like to see more skill brought back to the game and because I do not shy away from challenges--not because it would give me much, if any, advantage. It could even be a disadvantage at times.

Once a cranker is comfortable with his revs, as I am, other issues need to be addressed if he is not as good as he'd like to be. Ball speed, equipment choices, and drilling patterns, are some things I'm working to improve. High revs are not an answer to everything, obviously. They just give more mistake room on some conditions.

I hope this explains things better. I try to be as clear as possible with my posts, but I'm sure it doesn't always work out that way.

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#2398 - 04/07/06 12:54 AM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Smooth Stroker Offline
Legend

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1905
A/S/L: 45/M/Long Island
Let me give my long winded opinion on this matter. How does a cranker increase his average? easy, by being more accurate ( first and foremost ), by developing a more consistent speed/rev ratio, by developing better balance, and by not being afraid to move and bowl straighter if need be. Time after time I see guys turning pro and they find out that they can't win by just cranking the ball with unlimited revs. They don't begin to win until they can play more than one part of the lane and more than one style. Look at Robert Smith. Nobody has more revs than him. He is struggling to develop a straighter game so he can have a shot at winning on each pattern. Michael Fagan, who can hook the ball on ice, has been working hard on his straight game, so he can compete on tour on each pattern. They have to learn how to develop different releases, different speeds, better lane management to be successful. Walter Ray Williams used to hook the ball a lot more. He found out that by bowling a lot straighter, he would be more successful. Randy Pederson has said it many times, the harder the pattern the better the straighter bowlers will do. That's why you see
WRW, Patrick Allen, Brian Voss, Norm Duke, Mika Koivunemi, Mike Scroggins, Parker Bohn III, Chris Barnes ( a great example of a high rev bowler who has become a straight bowler to win on tour ) Doug Kent, and so on and so on, bowling so well at the majors. There are always exceptions like Pete Weber ( the best pure bowling talent I've ever seen ), Jason Couch, Tommy Jones ( I would like to see him win on a major pattern that doesn't cater to the crankers though ). The exceptions win because they are more accurate at repeating their shots than the other high rev bowlers who rely on revs and area to win. Revs and area will get you to a certain level and point. They won't help you win the big ones that have the real hard patterns.

High rev bowlers will always have an advantage on house shots. The outside area is too dry. They just have to throw hard with lots of revs to an area and they will blast the pocket and carry. The more revs you enter the pocket with, the more pin action you will get. On harder shots, it doesn't take much to miss the pocket. This is where speed control is important. Crankers don't really have any speed control. They use speed to their advantage to gain more leverage at the pin deck on house shots. They muscle their shots, so it has to be harder to repeat shots. If a cranker can repeat shots on a consistent basis, they will be very hard to beat. I can keep up with almost anyone on a fresh shot. As the lanes really dry out the cranker steps up with their high revs and speed and they pull away.

If a cranker and a stroker have the same exact pinpoint accuracy and could repeat shots the same, I believe the cranker would win most of the time. There are times that I am aiming at a crack between boards at the arrows. If I miss by a board, I'm [censored].

If I had to pick between Norm Duke and Tommy Jones, I would rather bowl like Norm Duke. He competes on every pattern. He is always a threat. that is not so with Tommy ( who I like a lot ).
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#2399 - 04/07/06 01:52 AM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Saint-Jake Offline
Junior Coach

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 49
A/S/L: m/52/Earth
Hey Group
Last week I just was in my first 'practice' game and at about the 5th frame the typical young-stud-
cranker starts shooting on the pair right beside me.

So I'm guessing that he's about 22, a big strong kid. I look over and the Pro-Shop guy comes out of his shop along with all of the young crankers that shoot there

and I mean all of them. I bowl there all of the time and this was my first time seeing this kid roll...he was good too.

I look over there and he is cranking the ball like nobodys business and getting 'Monsta Strikes' it
kinda intimidated me. His first game was really nice.

I look behind me and everyone is standing there watching him, so I actually said to myself, Ok nows the time to suck it up and show yourself that

all of the practicing that you have been doing will at least get you a respectable game in front of everyone.

So now we both start a new game at about the same time...

he throws..big strike
I throw..big strike
he throws..big split
I throw..big strike
he throws..big split
I throw..big strike
he throws..big split
I throw..big strike
he throws..big split
I throw..big strike
he throws..big split

he ends up shooting a buck twenty nine, hehe!

Btw, I was rolling and let me repeat that incase you missed that, I was rolling 'The One".

Haha, it was ******** great and now the crowd is watching me and not him, that my friends was a good time at the lanes.

Regards,
SJ

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#2400 - 04/07/06 02:10 AM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA"> If a cranker can repeat shots on a consistent basis, they will be very hard to beat. I can keep up with almost anyone on a fresh shot. As the lanes really dry out the cranker steps up with their high revs and speed and they pull away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I think the cranker dies when the lanes dry out. They have no concept of moving and adjusting except "more speed". Which then makes them even more inaccurate....even to the point where a house shot will not fogive them. I see most house crankers die after game 1.

I'm doing the "get drier" dance. I'm much weaker on a fresh shot. But if I'm in a 6 or 10 gamer, I'm looking forward to the last 1/2 of the games, just hoping the lanes dry out enough so that I can move in. Because if I can move into 15 or 18 board, I know the crankers are just praying for Brooklyn carry. While I'm still living in the pocket. I just have to be patient enough for the lanes to come to me. I beat a ton of them this year in Men's City. And a small handful in Men's Masters. Let it get drier....that's my A game, bring it on.

But Smooth has brought into the thread a different ingredient. Versatility. Which is much different then being accurate. Most of the times when crankers find the lanes drying out they 1. throw harder or 2. change equipment. Sometimes it works, but in the last game and sometimes second game of a three game set its not always enough. Versatility. The ability to move, adjust and adapt to changing lane conditions. Something that is infinitely much easier to do if you are...... ACCURATE.

Erin

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#2401 - 04/07/06 07:26 AM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2356
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">
But Smooth has brought into the thread a different ingredient. Versatility. Which is much different then being accurate. Most of the times when crankers find the lanes drying out they 1. throw harder or 2. change equipment. Sometimes it works, but in the last game and sometimes second game of a three game set its not always enough. Versatility. The ability to move, adjust and adapt to changing lane conditions. Something that is infinitely much easier to do if you are...... ACCURATE.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I know people who you'd classify as crankers who are versitle and accurate. I don't think being a "cranker" really means that you're less accurate or less versitle. I think the issue is that the vast majority of self proclaimed "crankers" are really just people with very bad fundimentals who want to try and rip the cover off the ball. And the reason they fall apart on sport shots isn't because they're crankers, it's again because they don't have good fundimentals.

Your better bowlers, regardless of style, will be able to average 190+ on a sport shot.

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#2402 - 04/07/06 12:58 PM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Yes Lefty, I believe you. Because the better bowlers, no matter their style know that they have to be accurate and versital. None that I know would ever stop working on accuracy or figure other aspects of their game would cover up such a deficiency, especially if they want to get really good.

But all Sport Shots are not created equal. We had many very elevated PBA regional guys in ours and no one averaged over 190. But then that was the first year it existed and the coordinator was bound and determined to put out the hardest shot he could contrive. USBC talks about expecting a 20 to 30 pin drop, but it was more like 50 to 60 pins in our league. Since then their shot has been changed, and the averages reflect it.

Erin

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#2403 - 04/07/06 01:52 PM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Rolling Pin Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 119
A/S/L: 33/male/Michigan
I've noted some good observations here. It's true that many crankers try to use power to make up for bad fundamentals. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. The cranker shot can certainly be an advantage on some conditions. I myself am continuing to work on my straighter game. Now I've taken much, if not all, of the muscle out of my swing, letting gravity do the work. I worked on this last night, and found my accuracy and consistency improved. I am developing this because I still haven't overcome the flaw in my cranker game. When the lanes burn out, even my lowest friction ball wants to over hook. I've managed to increase my ball speed, but the problems remain. I watched other crankers struggle as well (two very good ones that have won sport shot tournaments) on these lanes, and they had many different balls to choose from. I think there are just some conditions where cranking the ball is a huge disadvantage. That being the case, if I want to be a complete bowler I feel it is necessary to develop a solid straighter game that I can turn to when cranking the ball is a problem. Or there could come a day when I decide to drop the cranker shot completely. Nothing is set in stone for me in my quest to become a great bowler. I will do what works for me, regardless of what anyone else thinks. I will strongly consider advice, but ultimately choose my own path based on what works for me and what doesn't. If there was one true way to bowl, all pros would be alike--and many are very different from each other. Cranking the ball is just another way of knocking down pins, and it has its place. I'm not going to call myself a cranker anymore, or a stroker. I'm just a guy that does whatever he can to knock down the most pins. Part of doing that is to develop my accuracy to pinpoint precision so that when the lanes call for great shot making, I'll be able to do just that.

I cannot be labeled, so do not try. I will do what it takes to win.

My ramblings have ceased for now. Thank you.

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#2404 - 04/07/06 02:16 PM Re: Crankers and the Sport Shot
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2356
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">
Yes Lefty, I believe you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I wasn't trying to explain it to you. I'm betting you've been around bowling enough to have already known this smile . I was just trying to add to the conversation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">
But all Sport Shots are not created equal. We had many very elevated PBA regional guys in ours and no one averaged over 190.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">True. There's nothing to say that a sport shot has to be playable at all. And on the other extreme, short sport patterns tend to score pretty well.

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