Hi, Im 17 years old and new to this and this is my first post. I'm having problems with my game. I'm confused about my approach, release,speed, and armswing. I first started bowling seriously about a 2years ago and i was a thumbless bowler, and my average was about 185. I was told that i wouldn't get much better unless I put my thumb in the ball. About 4 months ago i went to my thumb in the ball. Now i have a world of problems with my game. I have the armswing and timing of a cranker but not the release, speed, or maybe my approach is wrong.It seems like when i try to come around the ball my thumb is in the way. I can make the ball hook but i have to throw it very slow. I need someone who is a cranker to help me with my game.

Maybe instead of trying to learn how to crank, you should learn how to bowl. Then after you learn the basics, you could learn how to add revs and if you still want to crank then be my guest. Your young, your body could probably handle it.

First of all, you still need to learn how to have a proper release. You still need to learn timing. With my release, I can cover just as many boards as any cranker I've seen and I'm not a cranker. It's all in the release. The cranker does have an advantage when the lanes dry out because of their superior speed.

Now the release. A good release has the thumb come out of the ball first. This happens by keeping your arm in close to your body. You bring your hand in tight to your ankle. Your hand should find a flat spot at the bottom of your armswing. With your arm hanging straight down, this is the spot that your hand should be flat, but close to your ankle. This allows the thumb to clear the ball first and the weight of the ball is resting on your fingers for a little while. Your fingers provide all of the leverage needed to give the ball enough revs to plow through the pins.

For extra revs you need to turn your hand at the top of your armswing so that its facing the lanes to your right. You need to keep your hand facing this position all the way through your armswing. Or you could turn your hand into this position near the bottom of your swing. This would put your index finger directly behind the ball if your index finger is spread. When you get to the bottom of your armswing and the ball is just behind your ankle, then you begin to turn your wrist. Your thumb will clear the ball first and your fingers will provide the leverage. You only turn your wrist. It is only a slight movement.

I use this release with much success. If you add the late timing and the muscle into it you will have a cranker release. This will give you a lot of power at the pins but it will make you competitive on really only one condition. That is a dryish condition. If you want to be competitive on all conditions, then you will need to be a bit more versatile. Learn how to bowl on all conditions. Learning a good cranker release takes a lot of work and is very difficult. Most bowlers on a lower skill level turn their hands too much thinking that is how you make the ball hook. That is not it. In bowling, LESS IS MORE!

thanx for the tips, i will practice them.I have a coach and i learned all the basics. It's just that im so used to seeing my ball's reaction with no thumb.I want to see that now with a thumb in the ball.I have a nice release but when I speed up the process for a cranker approach, with the backswing and muscling the ball it messes up everything. My timing is late but its inconsistent, my thumb stays in the ball too long, and when i do get a good release, the ball has revs but no turn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">
but when I speed up the process for a cranker approach, with the backswing and muscling the ball it messes up everything.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">That's because muscling the ball is bad no matter what your style is. Good crankers don't muscle the ball. As Smooth said, LESS IS MORE.

so how do you speed the ball up and still get revs on it.

first work on increasing the revs, then if extra speed is necessary, work on that. Muscling is bad. Don't muscle the ball. If you watch someone like Michael Fagan, he gets a ton of revs without muscling the ball. He has a high backswing and he comes way inside the ball with his hand. He lays the ball down as smooth as silk. It is totally silent when it hits the lanes. Revs are created by keeping your hand way to the inside of the ball. The more you can keep your hand inside, the more revs you will get. You don't have to bring your hand all the way around the ball. A slight turn. The ball should roll off of your fingers.

Don't worry so much about being a cranker. Increasing the revs is a good thing. The idea of the game is to knock down all ten pins. You can increase speed if necessary for dry lanes with a higher pushaway, starting further back on the approach, speeding up your feet a tad. If you speed up your feet, the armswing will follow. I would be very careful about speeding up your ball. It can wreck havoc with your timing. You should only increase revs as much as you can still control the ball. One last thing, even crankers need dry boards for the ball to react. I have seen crankers that throw the ball real hard, but don't cover the whole lane. Cover as much of the lane as you need to reach the pocket. You will be hard pressed to duplicate the revs of your thumbless delivery. Stop trying. Increase your revs as much as you can control it without muscling. You just want the ball to reach the pocket with maximum energy and drive through the pins.

A competent coach/instructor can help you in achieving your goals...

ok, i will practice that but the reason why I'm trying to be a cranker is that when i bowl i have a high backswing, and my ball only goes between 12-13mph.

Then there are other things that are going wrong, and you should talk to you coach about that as well. Muscling the ball won't be the answer.

You can get alot of power behind your ball by being balanced at the foul line, with the power coming from your legs. Muscling the ball with your arm is not a good thing as Smooth suggests.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by young gun:
I was told that i wouldn't get much better unless I put my thumb in the ball. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">hi there

i hate to contradict everything that every1 has sed but there are bowlers that have had a very good career in bowling using this style.

personally i say that bowling is a unique sport in the fact that there is no 2 bowlers the same.

i agree with u aj10pin, and i feel much more comfortable with no thumb than with the thumb.

The easy way to look at it is this, look at the PBA. Look at the styles that have been the most successful. Who has the most titles: Crankers, Tweeners, Strokers or No Thumbers?

Sure you can bowl anyway you want. You will hit a ceiling more than likely bowling with no thumb. You can hop to the line on one leg, close your eyes and fling the ball down the lane if you want to. If you want to bowl for fun then do it anyway you please. If you want to enter competitions and cash then you will need to learn how to bowl. Whether its with a thumb or not, the basics are still the same. You still need balance, accuracy and clean repeatable release.

I have seen a couple of no thumbers that actually bowl very well. There aren't many, but I've seen a couple. Bowling with no thumb is hard on the wrist and might create back problems at some point. There are healthier ways to bowl. It's also very hard to pick up the ten pin without killing the revs on the ball. Bowling on a house shot is kind of easy. Bowling on harder shots require accuracy. accuracy is on the difficult side without a thumb in the ball. It can be done, it's just more difficult.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">ok, i will practice that but the reason why I'm trying to be a cranker is that when i bowl i have a high backswing, and my ball only goes between 12-13mph. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Then you are surely muscling and controlling the swing too much. Because if you had a free swing and a high backswing, unless you are around 5' tall, you should be generating more speed then that. A big issues with crankers is to have that planting stop at the finish. No slide (which is then prone to knee problems) but still perfect balance. If you fall off the shot at all (you can also pretend you're running it out) ending up on your bowling side leg, then you do not have balance. When that happens, you lose leverage and power. No matter what styles the pros have, they have balance at the line. A good practise technique to see if you have balance is to hold that position until after the ball goes off the end of the pin deck. If you cannot, then you need to work on balance and finish position.

But it is easy when you are under 20 to say it feels right and comfortable to bowl with "no thumb" or "crank" the ball. But you'll only be bowling that way for a short while until injuries start to set in. We have an exceptional no thumber in our association. He averages over 230 in and on various house shots and tournament shots. But he's an exception. Plus at around 25 to 27 years of age, he's extremely prone to injury. "Glass hand" I call it. While he's healthy his bowling is incredible. But he, at a young age, is injured and suseptible to injury every time he throws a ball.

What Smooth was trying to get you to see is that even on the tour, the crankers are in the younger set of participants. That's because they don't last phsyically unless they make some changes. Also watch carefully for the body style that helps the crankers be who they are. If you are shorter,stouter and big boned, then its easier to be sucessfull as a cranker. However, if you are long limbed, lean and tall, you will end up hurting yourself.

Erin

well im kind of lean and tall, 6'1 and 165lbs. I was thinking about being a stroker when i go to tournaments and being a thumbless bowler on house shots. what do you yhink?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I was thinking about being a stroker when i go to tournaments and being a thumbless bowler on house shots. what do you yhink? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I think that's stupid and will only make you easier to beat.

Honestly. Its OK to be looking for a style. But get the aid of a good coach. If you have learned the fundamentals (as you've said) then I'm sure some of these issues have come up between you and your coach before. At your height and body bulk, I think you will not last as a cranker. At your height, you probably have long arms and legs. That's a real boon for this sport. The longer "wing span" you have the more speed and leverage you can gain almost effortlessly. Just get those legs compressed by lowering your hips at the line and stick your finish position. Let your long arms swing the ball effortlessly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">It's just that im so used to seeing my ball's reaction with no thumb.I want to see that now with a thumb in the ball.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">This is not going to happen. But it does tell me that you are pulling your eyes off your target prematurely to watch your hook. This is a bad habit to get into. You need to practise with no score and possibly no pins (real shadow practise) so that you can set in your muscle memory a more fluid easy going approach and release without the pressure of score or impressing your peers.

You need to concentrate on the three Ds. Determination, Dedication and Discipline. Not easy when you're a kid but if you want it badly enough you are in a perfect time to start.

Erin

Erin
It's been a long time since we have ******d. I now
think I am becoming a stroker. Mrs. Smith gave me
two tips to use and they are working.
1. slow steps
2. hit target

Last two weeks 609 and last sunday 563. The games are staying in the 183 to 209 range. I make most
of my spares and get smashing strikes. The reason for the smashing strikes is the Roto-Grip mercury. I love that ball
Hope to have more good news in the coming weeks
bowling joel

I'm a converted 2 finger bowler. I did it due to my wrist popping during the delivery, by the 3rd game my wrist was so weak that my shot was all over the place. I go 6ft 235lbs, maybe low 200s at the time even with plenty of gym time the wrist quit on me using a 16lb ball. I never had a coach so I learned on my own initially but using my thumb was the way to go.

There was an adjustment period but I learned how to bowl instead of just throw a hook. Eventually I learned how to rev just as well as I did 2 finger. My average was 180s-low 190s and before long I was over 200 every year in every league. I found repeating shots was easier, I let the ball do the work and even with a pre-existing back injury I could bowl through a 3 game set with no pain(in my wrist at least).

Find a style that suits you, I wouldn't alternate between thumb and no thumb that sounds like trouble.

well sed silent mike lol

that is the best thing about bowling there is no 'right' and no 'wrong' way to bowl.

for me i am a cranker but the way i get my revs and massive hook is from keeping my ARM inside the ball and trying to stay low on the shots. this then make the ball go long then when it hooks it turns and gives me gr8 pin action (not always carry lol) the amount of ringgin 10 omg lol. saying that i get alot of h/p messagers lol

hope this helps

AJ

I have to politely disagee with Erin and Silent Mike's statements that alternating between thumb and no thumb is stupid or inviting trouble. When I crank the ball, I have a much different hand position that when I play straighter or throw at my spares. When I crank, I use a lot of hand and wrist. When I stroke the ball, I use mostly fingers. This ability to alternate between such drastic shots has saved me from disaster on the number of occasions. (Start out with a 170, come back with a 250--that sort of thing.) On heavy oil, I usually crank the ball. On dry lanes, I usually play straighter and stroke it. I call myself a cranker because that is the shot I typically use, but I suppose in truth I am both. (I absolutely have to use both on the horrid lanes where I bowl, especially this year.)Also, a lot of thumbless bowlers insert their thumbs to shoot spares, and so they do alternate to some degree. However, I would say that both styles would have to be practiced equally. Just stroking the ball in tournaments (with no other practice) would probably indeed be foolish. I am just guessing for the most part, since I always use my thumb. But how can bowlers who don't ever bowl thumbless say it would be stupid to alternate between the two? It might just provide a winning edge and might be worth a try.

rolling Pin

rolling Pin, not saying that what you do is wrong, if you can stroke on dry lanes and crank on wet lanes then more power to you. Usually it's the other way around. Usually Crankers perform better on Drier lanes because they can overpower the lanes where a stroker can't generate enough speed to overpower the lanes. And a stroker usually will bowl better on oily lanes because a cranker has more trouble getting the ball to turn over on oily lanes where the stroker excels because they can play the lanes straighter the way they like to. Are you a high speed Stroker? Or do you fluff the ball down the lanes on the dry stuff.

I find your observations very interesting, Smooth Stroker. First of all, I am a high speed stroker, because when the lanes are dry, I often play straight with lower revs and a lot of ball speed. And unless the oil is super, super, heavy, I usually have no trouble cranking the ball and getting it back to the pocket. I never considered that the reverse could be true for some players. When the lanes are very dry, however, my cranker shot is next to useless (all standard adjustments taken into consideration). My ball will often hook halfway down the floor, and in order to keep it on the right side of the head pin I must throw so hard I'm pulled off balance. (Assuming I can't find an oil line inside, of course, which has been the case on my lanes lately, with the middle being bone dry and little oil outside.) My revs are almost the same as a thumbless bowler, due to the large amount of hand action I put into the ball on release. With my stroker shot, however, I can get the ball to hold line better due to less revs and a simpler hand release that doesn't take as much speed off my shot. I've actually never heard that crankers prefer dry and strokers prefer oil in general. Most of the crankers I know prefer oil. I'm not sure about the strokers. If you think I'm doing things wrong, or that there is a better way, let me know. I am always seeking to improve my game through good advice.

Well, when you say that you are a high speed stroker, are you just changing your release but everything else stays the same? Or do you change your whole style? To me a stroker doesn't muscle the ball but allows the weight of the ball to dictate ball speed. Just because you are playing the lanes straight, I would hesitate to call you a stroker. If you are still flaming the ball down the lane, then you are probably still muscling the ball. Strokers don't muscle the ball. If you can score the way you are bowling, then keep it up. I don't want to tell you what you are doing is wrong. As long as you can repeat shots and score well then you are doing something right.

The reason I say that Crankers prefer to have the lanes dry is because most crankers like to play way left if you are a righty. The only way to play way left is if you have some dry boards to bank the ball off of. If the lanes are real wet and you play way left, you run the risk of having your ball skid past the breakpoint. Look at the PBA. When the lane conditions dictate that the bowlers play over by the gutter because the middle is too wet, the strokers excel. When the shot is going coast to coast, crankers excel. When the lanes dry out, the strokers have to move in because their gutter shot is dried up. Their ball moves too much and they don't have enough ball speed to compensate. Crankers can just turn up the juice because they muscle the ball anyway. Just throw harder. Overpower the lanes. It happens every tournament I enter. I'm always near the top of the leaderboard when the lanes are nice and fresh. When the lanes really breakdown, I drop a lot. Because I can't overpower the lanes like the crankers can. If I have to play 4th to 5th arrow and beyond, I can score, but not well enough to win yet. Not enough ball speed.

If Walter Ray's shot dries up, he has to move in not out. If Duke's shot dries up by the gutter, he starts to really hook it not stroke it. When Mike Machuga's gutter stroker shot dried up, he moved way in and started to really hook the ball. The reason is because he now had some dry boards to bank the ball off of.

I think you're a right. I don't think I have a true muscle-free swing when I stroke the ball. My arm is not tense, but I do use physical strength to overpower the conditions. I do not let the weight of the ball dicate my swing, it now appears. I was calling myself a stroker because I do play very straight (sometimes with my normal cranker shot, and sometimes with my other, simpler release using mostly fingers). But based on your definitions, I suppose I am just a cranker that adjusts his shot. And when the outsides of the lane are heavily oiled, that doesn't bother me too much because I adjust my arm swing to keep the ball more inside. My lanes are often like that. My problem area is dry lanes--even though I can overpower them I still struggle more than on oil. By the way, why can't you switch to a less aggressive ball and still play the gutter? I've seen Norm Duke do this very successfully.

I already use the weakest ball I can find outside of plastic and urethane. I am rev dominate. That is I produce more revs than ball speed.

It seems we have a similiar problem, Smooth Stroker. Not long ago, my lanes got a nice coat of oil for a couple of weeks. Not heavy, but enough to work with. I put up six straight 600 series, including three over 650. That's good bowling for me. But my last two leagues have been terrible. The lanes have been horridly dry. Last night I put up a 549. Even though I overpowered the lanes, my carry was bad. Also, there was no real oil line anywhere to work with. However, my 549 was the second best series on our pair, with one guy just beating me out! I too have begun tournaments with lofty scores, only to begin struggling as the lanes dry out. I am working hard to try to develop ways to deal with dry lanes (my "B" game). Like your shot, my normal cranker shot is not super fast, and many times I simply cannot use it and stay on the right side of the head pin. If I try to throw too hard with it, I lose control and balance, often pulling the ball sharply left.

Keep in mind that when you use your thumb in the ball with a crank shot, the principles are still the same as a thumbless crank shot.

A proper hook ball requires that the thumb be out, or almost out of the ball at the point of release. If you don't, then you end up with a helicopter spin.

At the very bottom of your down-swing, when the ball is about to leave your hand, the ball should be rolling off of your thumb while you are turning your hand into the release to achieve hook.

Out of curiousity to a earlier reply by Smooth Stroker, what type of form does have the most titles? Stroker, Cranker, Tweener, or no-thumb?

Strokers and power strokers have won the most titles. Crankers have done well, but haven't won as many titles. The reason for this is that pure crankers have a hard time matching up to some lane conditions, whereas guys like Norm Duke or Walter Ray can adapt more fluidly. Tommy Jones is somewhat of a rarity--a cranker that seems to do as well as the great strokers of the sport. So is cranking inferior? In the area of versitility, it seems to be a bit lacking compared to the stroker shot. Crankers try to match equipment to the changing lanes, but often find themselves up the creek without a paddle--such as Robert Smith when he is lofting the ball WAY over the left gutter. Patrick Allen used to put a lot of action into his ball before he turned pro. Now he almost always plays straight up the boards with a simple release. Why did he make that change? I think he had to in order to be the winner he is. The more the curve of your ball path, the longer the path, and the more chance for problems. So that's undoubtedly why crankers have not fared as well on the PBA tour. And I suppose I should mention the greatest player ever--Earl Anthony. He won his 41 titles in half the time it has taken Walter Ray, with a low rev, slow speed style.

The cranker shot does work well at times. For league bowlers and in various tournaments, it can be quite favorable. The cranker shot may still be evolving since the glory days of Mark Roth as conditions and equipment change, and Tommy Jones may be the next Roth or even the next Anthony. Time will tell.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Crankers try to match equipment to the changing lanes, but often find themselves up the creek without a paddle--such as Robert Smith when he is lofting the ball WAY over the left gutter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Or when Mr. Smith wins tournaments throwing a back up ball because his cranker ball wasn't fitting up to the lane conditions.

Erin

I have considered myself a cranker(wanna be) for some time - but the consistancy wasn't there. I was watching an older gentleman a couple lanes away a few weeks back - WOW definition of a stroker - and his average was much higher than me. Long story short: Polished balls - increased speed and...increased average. Easier spares and alot better fill frames...