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#200004 - 07/14/19 11:29 AM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: ASUWoody]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 469
A/S/L: 72/m/IL
Boat, I have questionable bowling habits. They came back when I returned to bowl fairly regularly after having not rolled a ball for nearly 30 years.
I just recalled that when I marked my PAP with a small piece of white tape that the PAP is just right of the left side of my hand as I'm holding the ball in my normal stance. Generally my fingers are at about 45 degrees to the left and so the PAP is about 45 degrees to the left from straight back towards the settee area.
I should just keep it there with my hand under the ball as best I can and I should probably be good to go. It seems to me that the Mongoose Optimum may help me a little bit to stay right there through the entire swing.
We'll see... Again, thanks...

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#200005 - 07/14/19 02:30 PM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: djp1080]
82Boat69 Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 707
A/S/L: 71/M/California
Learning to work a ball inside out without going around the ball is difficult. My problem is just the opposite of most. I get too much up the back. I'm an old full-roller who converted. My PAP is over 6-3/16 and down 3/8.

To get out of the ball but stay behind it, I spread my index finger just a little and keep it pointed straight down. That puts my ring and middle fingers around 7 o'clock and my hand comes out clean without my elbow flying away. Staying relaxed until the ball is just behind my left foot insures my elbow stays inside during my release.

As I age, everything that 'was' so easy gets more difficult.

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#200006 - 07/14/19 07:14 PM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: ASUWoody]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 469
A/S/L: 72/m/IL
I guess I'm trying to keep my fingers on the inside. I, too, am a converted full-roller guy and my PSO had my PAP at 5.5" over and nearly 1" up.
The tip of my index finger is spread about 1.5" away from the middle one.
If I do things (what I call) properly, my fingers are at 7 o'clock as well.
In order to stay behind the ball I think I'm going to have to feel like my hand is opening up to the right on the back swing even though it may actually only be straight back.
It's almost like I'm not aware of what's happening back there and that's a problem. I might just come around the side of the ball without wanting to. Perhaps my body doesn't care much for the feeling of doing things a certain way that I'm attempting to do... Don't know...
Perhaps 1000 one-step drills might help.

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#200007 - 07/14/19 09:39 PM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: djp1080]
82Boat69 Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 707
A/S/L: 71/M/California
I learned when I was young to have a number of checkpoints in my backswing that kept me in the right position on the way back and on the way forward. Here's another; As we age our muscles in our arms atrophy. One of the easiest ways to see this effect is to stand with your arms hanging down to your side and see how much further your thumbs hang inside when relaxed. It becomes especially bad when you then hang a bowling ball on that arm. Many people don't even notice but their thumb will rotate inside 90 degrees on the way back. If they then try to 'pull' from the top instead of 'swing' from the top, a fly-away elbow will begin the inevitable process of going around the ball. We think we can control the ball, but our muscles aren't what they were and even 13 pounds can make the hand go around instead inside out.

Why is everyone pulling from the top? They want more speed. As we age speed wanes, but not because of our arm-swing. Our speed wanes because of our footspeed. As we age we are less sure of our balance. To compensate, we go slower. The answer is strength but few of us are willing to do the necessary exercise to strengthen our legs, so we can be more balanced and increase our speed :-) Even for those who can, eventually, we all slow down. Accepting our limitations is another problem we have :-) I have many friends who whine about lane conditions because they are unwilling to admit to themselves they just aren't the bowler they once were.

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#200008 - 07/14/19 10:35 PM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: ASUWoody]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9808
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
let me add something.

I find, with a lot of seniors I work with, as soon as they push off, their fingers point straight to the floor, and they stay that way til the release. This puts the hand on top of the ball with very little ball rotation at release. Often, they resort to a wrist turn to get the ball to hook.

The problem is that the ball comes off their hand with the fingers and thumb simultaneously.

Remember: YOUR FINGERS HAVE TO BE UNDER THE EQUATOR OF THE BALL AT RELEASE!!

An exercise I use is to put their hand in the ball and rest the ball on a table or counter, with their knuckles touching the table top. Their thumb is up and fingers are below the equator.
Then, push the ball, sliding it on the table and pull your thumb out, leaving fingers in the ball. Continue pushing then lift their hand pulling the fingers up.
This gives them the feeling of how the release should be and it's very different from theirs. The feeling is on their finger tips, mainly the ring finger, as it should be.

After a few practice rolls, they can eventually feel the difference and a light bulb goes off in their head.

Oh, and they get ball rotation and a hook without twisting their wrist or forearm.

PS: Unlearning the old habit takes time.


Edited by Dennis Michael (07/14/19 10:45 PM)
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#200009 - 07/15/19 12:37 AM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: Dennis Michael]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 469
A/S/L: 72/m/IL
Thanks Dennis,
As I look at my fingers it looks as though I have a short dark line at the end of my middle finger and maybe a tinge on my ring finger. If I have my hand in the right position, I can tell I released it well.
I don't want to try your exercise at home. I'll have to try it at or near the lanes. I'd like to feel how that is. Good exercise.

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#200010 - 07/15/19 12:48 AM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: 82Boat69]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 469
A/S/L: 72/m/IL
Boat, For me it's not a tendency of pulling the ball down from the top to get more speed it the bad habit of pulling the ball up higher into the back swing. As for weight I have several balls at 15 lbs and the newest ball I have is 14 lbs.
When I first came back to this game, my ball speed was probably 18 to 19 mph. Just about any ball I'd get in my hands would go straight. With some coaching, etc., I'm now at around 15 mph on straight spare shots. I'm pretty flexible and post most shots. Balance doesn't seem to be an issue. It's just bad habits that I need to convince my body to break away from.
I think I'm going to have to get used to the feeling that my hand is wide open to the right on the back swing and allow that to happen. It feels kind of weird, but it might be the trick. Just don't think I could do what Amletto does on his.

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#200013 - 07/19/19 10:50 AM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: djp1080]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 469
A/S/L: 72/m/IL
In the midst of things I came across this article: https://www.billspigner.com/pdf/0319_Bill_BJI.pdf
So I used this drill successfully for a number of shots, then I moved to the one step drill for more shots again successfully. Didn't take any videos, but one of the guys watched my swing height and hand movement. During the drills my fingers were staying inside. Index finger pointing toward the pins at start and fingers on top of the ball at the top of the swing. All good stuff.
Went to a 4-step approach and was able to accomplish much the same and the ball got into a nice roll. On occasion though my arm got into somewhat of a hitch near the top of the swing, but my hand was still able to be near the right position at the release. On those shots my accuracy and reaction suffered.
So I've been doing both of the drills here at home without releasing the ball. Keeping my elbow in helps a lot on all. Keeps my fingers inside and get good reaction.
I've got to get this to become a habit rather than extreme swing height and inconsistent hand motion during the swing... Practice, practice, practice...

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#200014 - 07/21/19 12:42 PM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: ASUWoody]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1208
A/S/L: 63/M /Georgia
Dip you said you had to pull the ball up into the backswing. If you are pulling the ball up you may be muscling and gripping the ball. You can generate a higher backswing without using any added muscle simply by leaning forward increasing spine tilt after the ball drops into your swing. You have to do it at the correct time and takes a little practice.
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#200015 - 07/21/19 01:29 PM Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? [Re: ASUWoody]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9808
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Boss is right. A forward lean raises your backswing.
Many people cut their backswing short, and pitch the ball onto the lane. Free up your arm and let it swing naturally. Lean forward and your backswing will free up.

it is interesting, but you gain a lot more speed with a freer roll rather then a twist on the ball
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