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#199256 - 03/23/18 02:53 PM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: SteveH]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9736
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Originally Posted By: SteveH
From what I've heard, even back in the day, conditions varied. Even before the short oil era.


Not really. Back in the day, all bowlers, amateur and Pro, bowled on the same shot. Wooden lanes, laquered.

There was no shot, and it was the same from house to house.

The advent of synthetic lanes created the slide as part of the ball path. Prior to that, a bowler got the ball to roll right off his hand.


Edited by Dennis Michael (03/23/18 02:55 PM)
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#199257 - 03/23/18 03:54 PM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: Dennis Michael]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 802
A/S/L: 38/M/New Jersey
I think it depends on what you want to consider as back in the day. The urethane lane finishes on wood lanes also played a factor in increasing the slide phase.

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Prior to that, a bowler got the ball to roll right off his hand.

I'm pretty sure you don't mean roll in the sense of the USBC defined roll phase that occurs just before the pin deck, right? If that was the case, then bowlers of that era would have their ball complete nearly 27 full rotations before the pins and if released at 17 mph would need to have 673 rpm off the hand. I am wondering how you are using roll in the statement. I do believe that the changes have made the slide/skid phase become so important due to how much longer it is today than it ever used to be.

Mark
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#199258 - 03/23/18 05:51 PM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: BOSStull]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9736
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
No mark, better bowlers rolled the ball right off their hand. Purpose was back then, to eliminate the skid. Opposite of what we do now. With lacquer all the way to the pin deck, there was no place to gain friction. So, it was important to get into the roll as fast as possible. Ball side rotation generated from finger lift cause it to hook. Some would snap their fingers as the ball left their hand, most used suitcase grip too.

hahaha, 673 rpm. What a guy. No, the balls didn't have internal weights, and the rpm's were imparted by your hand and fingers. I can still remember I could hear the ball spinning as it hit the lane.
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#199259 - 03/24/18 07:31 AM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: Dennis Michael]
Mkirchie Offline
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Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 802
A/S/L: 38/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
hahaha, 673 rpm. What a guy. No, the balls didn't have internal weights

I asked question based on the numbers. This has nothing to do with internal weights or how people bowl differently then compared to now. It also pertains to the type of motion that the USBC describes as the roll phase.

The circumference of a bowling ball is 26.7 inches. Since it was likely a full roller, I can assume that the entire circumference of the ball has to touch the lane in one rotation.

A bowling lane is 720 inches from the foul line to the head pin.

(720 in)/(26.7 in/rotation) = 26.96 rotations in one trip down lane.

A bowling ball thrown at 17 mph would reach the head pin in 2.4 seconds. If we assume it never slides and only rolls (the roll phase), it would have to complete all 26.96 rotations in 2.4 seconds.

(26.96 rotations)/(2.4 seconds) = 11.2 rotations/second

(11.2 rotations/second)*(60 seconds/min)=674 rotations/minute

To never slide and only roll, a ball released at 17 mph would have to have 674 rpm the instant it touched the lane. That means 674 rpm off of the hand.

Mark
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#199260 - 03/24/18 07:57 AM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: BOSStull]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9736
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I never argue with empirical evidence.
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#199261 - 03/24/18 03:19 PM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: BOSStull]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 432
A/S/L: 71/m/IL
I'd suppose that the ball once released slid a little bit. How much who knows?
Cripes! I didn't think I ever came close to a 600 rev rate back in the 60's. smile I had a pretty good hook though with my Black Beauty. Still have it, too... Looks nice and shiny...

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#199262 - 03/24/18 03:38 PM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: djp1080]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 648
A/S/L: 70/M/California
I don't think anyone threw 600 RPM's in the 60's, although we tried. We called them armpit-balls :-) No thumb, just fingers and you had to carry the ball high on your body next to your shoulder to keep a hold. Hadn't thought of 2 hands yet. At the very end, your arm would uncoil and put unimaginable rev's on the ball. Because the oil ran for 60 feet, there wasn't a hook or roll phase to increase RPM's like today. The ball just had a 60 foot skid phase. Everyone tried to throw a full roller then. Bowling balls were made from 16 pound industrial diamonds :-) After a hundred games or so, a track about 1/2 inch wide would begin to appear :-)

When lacquer came out, then things began to change. We thought balls hooked a lot then. LOL! Nobody could imagine what was coming.

I think Wayne Webb was the first person to offset the pancake weight block and drill a balance hole. We called them floppers. After that, everyone converted to 3/4 rollers to take advantage of the dynamic weight. Axis weight, leverage weight and floppers were popular.

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#199265 - 03/25/18 04:46 AM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: BOSStull]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9736
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Look at the Septuagenarians chiming in on this topic. It's only we, who have been there, that can say these things.

djp, you threw a hook, because you learned how to bowl, not just buy one in a box. I remember my first semi-fingertip ball. No one could believe how that ball hooked. I rolled lower to the floor then. And, when the ball met the lane, I could hear it spin right off my hand. My target was between the first and second dots at the foul line,straight up. We didn't have arrows then. The ball would travel about 45 feet , then make a radical turn to the pocket, sending 5 pins at the 7. I could feel a strike right off my hand.

And, 10 pins were easy then too. IDK why, but they were. Threw the ball at the gutter about 50 feet and the ball turned to hit it.

I know Mark will say my ball was sliding if I heard the spin and it turned at 45 feet.
Maybe it was.

And, I had to be 5-6 MPH faster too.
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#199267 - 03/25/18 08:30 AM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: Dennis Michael]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 802
A/S/L: 38/M/New Jersey
I sort of learned how to hook without the "hook in a box". In the fall of 1995, I got my first "high end" ball, which is the Turbo in my avatar. It was an upgrade to a 16 lb ball from a more generic 14 lb urethane with a pancake block. At the same time, my center installed synthetic lanes. I'm not sure whether the ball or the lanes played more of a factor in this, but my average jumped around 20-30 pins that season to be averaging with the top bowlers in high school who were all using resin. My average dropped the first season I used resin until I got used to it.

Keep in mind that until somewhat recently, everyone also thought that the motion of the ball was skid, roll, hook. A ball that is rolling without slipping/sliding (the USBC roll phase) experiences static friction and physically cannot hook unless the static weights are crazy illegal. A ball in the roll phase without sliding/slipping would never gain RPMs. The point of contact of the ball has to be sliding relative to the lane for kinetic friction to cause a change in direction and an increase in RPMs. Imagine rolling any ball on a perfectly level surface such that its direction of motion is perpendicular to the axis around which it rotates; it will not change direction. You mentioned side rotation earlier. If the ball's motion relative to the lane is straight forwards and it has side rotation, it experiences kinetic friction and is not rolling without slipping/sliding no matter how many RPMs the ball has.

This was more about asking what you mean by roll vs. what the USBC means by the roll phase, which was my original question. We have to be careful with observations as they also need to be justified by reasoning that is consistent across all phenomenon.

Mark
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#199268 - 03/25/18 11:08 AM Re: For the good of the sport? [Re: Dennis Michael]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 432
A/S/L: 71/m/IL
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Look at the Septuagenarians chiming in on this topic. It's only we, who have been there, that can say these things.

djp, you threw a hook, because you learned how to bowl, not just buy one in a box. I remember my first semi-fingertip ball. No one could believe how that ball hooked. I rolled lower to the floor then. And, when the ball met the lane, I could hear it spin right off my hand. My target was between the first and second dots at the foul line,straight up. We didn't have arrows then. The ball would travel about 45 feet , then make a radical turn to the pocket, sending 5 pins at the 7. I could feel a strike right off my hand.

And, 10 pins were easy then too. IDK why, but they were. Threw the ball at the gutter about 50 feet and the ball turned to hit it.

I know Mark will say my ball was sliding if I heard the spin and it turned at 45 feet.
Maybe it was.

And, I had to be 5-6 MPH faster too.

Yes Dennis, Been there and have done that!
I believe my first ball was a 16 pounder Black Beauty. When I heard about fingertip grips, I got one. Don't recall how I lined up, but it was probably a down and in shot along the right side.
Your explanation of the 10-pin shots was what experienced, too. I never heard of flattening out my shot either, so I didn't. Stayed with the same type of release each time no matter what.
In the 80's got the LT48. My hook monster for the time. Great ball.
Always threw a full-roller as I've said here many times. I still fight the tendency to do just that. I've gotten control of my backswing pretty much and I like the feel of the ball coming off my fingers on the inside of the ball now. My speed has dropped from 19 to 20 mph down to around 16 mph off my hand. Hopefully that's about right.
Lately have been working hard on my spare shooting ability. I've amazed myself on picking up stuff like the 4-9, 4-5 and 1-2-10 regularly. Of course, there's not much excuse for having missed the darn head pin, is there? smile

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