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#199292 - 03/29/18 02:27 PM A question of degrees
Jason_C Online   content
Junior Master

Registered: 11/15/17
Posts: 34
A/S/L: 41/M/New York
I Recently purchased a Motiv Forza SS. This is going to be my new benchmark ball. Here is my question. (I hope I word this correctly). I am wondering if 50 x 4.5 x 35 would be a lot more aggressive off of the spot than 50 x 4.5 x 40. Is 5 degrees considered a lot or would the difference in shape (ie the aggression off of the spot) be more subtle. would you need to have a 10 Degree difference in that last number for a noticeable difference in how quickly it reacts to the friction or would 35 be noticeably more aggressive than 40. I hope I am getting my question across. I know that rev rate and other factors come in to play over all. I am just curious with all other factors being equal and the only difference being the VAL angle in the layout how much of a difference would 5 degrees make?

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
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#199293 - 03/29/18 04:04 PM Re: A question of degrees [Re: Jason_C]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 646
A/S/L: 70/M/California
What do you mean by 'off the spot'?

Dual angles are complex. A person needs to take into consideration the ball's characteristics, the lane pattern, the bowler's speed, RPM's, axis tilt and axis rotation.

Too many bowlers expect too much from minor changes in dual angles. First, drilling only represents 15% or less of a balls reaction. Probably, much less. Rather than thinking of angle combinations, try to think about what the angles will accomplish on the pattern you shoot on. The objective is to have the most speed and RPM's coming off the pattern as your delivery can provide.

Here's an example; When bowlers want back-end, they immediately think they need a shorter pin-to-PAP with an acute VAL angle. This might work but the ball will more than likely lose too much speed and RPM's creating all that motion. On the other hand, by selecting a weaker ball surface, using a narrow drilling angle, a wider pin-to-PAP and a wider VAL angle, the bowler will preserve more speed and RPM's as the ball comes off the pattern resulting in much more hitting power versus just ball motion.

It's really unimportant how much ball motion is created if on impact the ball deflects right of the 9 pin. The objective needs to be where the ball goes off the pin-deck, not from where the ball comes from to hit the pocket.

Only people with 350-450 RPM's can consistently carry those hits with high entry angles. The rest of us are limited to 4-5.5 degrees.

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#199294 - 03/29/18 04:56 PM Re: A question of degrees [Re: Jason_C]
Jason_C Online   content
Junior Master

Registered: 11/15/17
Posts: 34
A/S/L: 41/M/New York
I get that the layout is not at the top of the list of concerns for ball reaction. This question is more for self edification rather than deciding on a layout. I am just trying to compare two layouts. Obviously everything is equal. Imagine for example we are just talking about you throwing the same exact ball with the two layouts. One with a val Angle of 35 and one with a val angle of 40. I am wondering if the 35 would be noticeably more angular when it reacts to friction than the 40 would be (again with Rev rate, tilt et al all being equal), or if 5 degrees is too small of a difference to notice.

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#199295 - 03/29/18 05:34 PM Re: A question of degrees [Re: Jason_C]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2127
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
You would have a very hard time discerning a 5 degree difference.
_________________________
Career Highs: 300/759

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#199296 - 03/29/18 05:47 PM Re: A question of degrees [Re: Jason_C]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 432
A/S/L: 71/m/IL
Jason, I've been looking at dual angle layout vs PSA layout stuff for a little while. For me I've pretty much decided to go with VAL angles of 25 to 35 degrees for probably just about everything I'll purchase in the future.
In the last couple of years I won a Roto Grip Wreck-It and had it laid out with a 45 degree VAL angle as I thought it was a bit strong of a ball. Never did well with that ball. Haven't had it changed. Bought a Hammer Dark Legend and had it laid out with a 50 degree VAL angle. It's okay, but it surely didn't show me anything to want to buy another Hammer ball any time soon.
I doubt you'll notice a difference in a +/- 5 degree change though.
Good luck... Go with a lower VAL angle that you and your PSO agree on... smile

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#199297 - 03/29/18 06:22 PM Re: A question of degrees [Re: djp1080]
Jason_C Online   content
Junior Master

Registered: 11/15/17
Posts: 34
A/S/L: 41/M/New York
I kind of figured 5 degrees was not enough to notice much of a difference. My Venom Shock has a VAL angle of 40. It is beautiful. Perfect for what I use it for. In fact up 'till now it has been first out of the bag in 2 of the houses I play in. Smooth, predictable. It's continuation through the pins is fantastic and I like that it makes it's move down lane. My Tag Cannon is drilled with a 30 VAL angle and it is much more angular (Obviously the core, coverstock and those things are the biggest reason why) but was curious if there was a magic number where you start to notice the difference.I feel like I would still get the good motion on the Cannon if I had a VAL Angle of 35 but it would be too round with a 40. At the same time I feel like if I went any more acute with the Shock it would be too angular. Then again it is probably all in my head as with most things...lol

I am thinking I will probably go with 35 on the Forza. I could not be happier with Motiv equipment if they paid me. I have gotten all of my lifetime bests in the last 5 months since I made the switch from Hammer.

Although in the dry houses I still pull out my Hammer arsenal. Best urethane balls in my opinion. The Black and the Blue (Despite it's cheap price Point) are money on the lanes that Whisper the word oil rather than actually oil their lanes.


Edited by Jason_C (03/29/18 06:26 PM)

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#199298 - 03/29/18 07:40 PM Re: A question of degrees [Re: Jason_C]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 646
A/S/L: 70/M/California
I think too many people buy a ball but haven't done their homework in advance. If they have a ball they really like, they should take the time to calculate their average ball speed with their favorite ball, then create a video to count every RPM as that ball goes down the lane.

After they buy a new ball, they need to do the same thing again and see what has been gained or what has been lost. According to USBC, only 2 factors are important, rev-rate and speed coming off the oil.

If speed or rev-rate drops, whatever they've done has worked against them.

The Forza has a very moderate surface. It would be comparable to a Storm Hy-Road. I've discovered for myself, that if I use any ball with much more surface friction than a Hy-Road, whatever I may gain in motion is lost in pin carry.

As I drill balls with weaker surfaces but more appropriate angles, I find I don't lose anything. In fact I gain a little more speed and a little more RPM's. The change of direction off the oil gives me an added revving action that makes my weak balls hit hard despite their limited surfaces.

Unless the typical house shot is less than 36 feet, I think many people could used a drilling angle less than 50 and a VAL 50 or greater. The real difference is the shape of the hook and when the ball gets started. It also allows a person to move left instead of being forced outward. Reducing entry angle for bowlers with less than 350 RPM's will improve their pin-carry.

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#199299 - 03/29/18 08:04 PM Re: A question of degrees [Re: Jason_C]
Jason_C Online   content
Junior Master

Registered: 11/15/17
Posts: 34
A/S/L: 41/M/New York
I have had my Rev rate measured with high speed video on several occasions. My worst day was just over 380. The other 5 times That my guy and I checked my measurables it was over 400. That is about the only thing that Rheumatoid arthritis and a failed spinal fusion has not robbed me of. He measured the speed off my hand at about 18 MPH and around 15 at the pins. Back in the day I was much more of a cranker than I am now. But I am more controlled now I feel and actually get better carry

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#199300 - 03/29/18 10:01 PM Re: A question of degrees [Re: Jason_C]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 646
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Then the sky's the limit :-)

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#199301 - 03/30/18 12:26 AM Re: A question of degrees [Re: 82Boat69]
Jason_C Online   content
Junior Master

Registered: 11/15/17
Posts: 34
A/S/L: 41/M/New York
unfortunately the floor is closer than the sky lmao

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