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#199164 - 03/01/18 12:47 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: 82Boat69]
steveA Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 12/21/12
Posts: 572
A/S/L: 58/male/newcastle:uk
Could be it Dennis but I certainly miss them.
Mind you I'd also like to be able to see the arrows on the lanes I play on now , old wood lanes been down for years, any markers have just about been sanded away over time.
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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#199165 - 03/01/18 04:11 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: 82Boat69]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9710
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I don't know who put the arrows on the lanes first. Should look that up. In any event, why only at 15 feet and not farther down lane?

It may have been based on the type of bowler back then, with a moderate down and in shot or straight up.

Today's SWINGING ball path, certainly lends itself to a mark farther down the lane.

I can remember my first house, had no lane marks on the wooden lanes. We would look for a darker or discolored board for targeting.
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#199166 - 03/01/18 04:12 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: 82Boat69]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9710
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I don't know who put the arrows on the lanes first. Should look that up. In any event, why only at 15 feet and not farther down lane?

It may have been based on the type of bowler back then, with a moderate down and in shot or straight up.

Today's SWINGING ball path, certainly lends itself to a mark farther down the lane.

I can remember my first house, had no lane marks on the wooden lanes. We would look for a darker or discolored board for targeting.
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LM - Black Diamond 15#
Lord Field - Exodus Pearl 15#
Legends - L/M New Terminator 15#
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




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#199167 - 03/01/18 04:48 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: Dennis Michael]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 636
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Starting in the late 50's AMF houses had an extra dot on the approach and the dots were multi-colored. The pinsetters would display an arrow and the color of the dot on the approach a person should stand on to pick up that spare. Brunswick house just dots and fewer of them. The arrows were standard in both houses. Range-finders appeared when balls that could break 2 feet in the last 10 feet came along :-)

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#199168 - 03/01/18 05:11 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: 82Boat69]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 796
A/S/L: 38/M/New Jersey
My AMF center has the colored dots and I only found out within the last 5-10 years that they were colored for that purpose. AMF called it their "sparemaker" system. I also have found out that the part above the pins that showed remaining pins and the sparemaker arrows was called the "pindicator" or "pindication" by AMF. All of this was removed before I started bowling there, but I have seen old pictures. I would have loved to have ever bowled in a center where all those features were still there and worked, but I'm also under the impression by the time I started bowling that most centers had abandoned fixing the systems due to computerized scoring.

Mark
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#199169 - 03/01/18 06:44 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: Mkirchie]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 636
A/S/L: 70/M/California
The system worked well for anyone who spot-bowled. For those learning to spot bowl, it shortened the time needed.

Even today, AMF houses have 1 extra dot on each end of the dots on the approach. Not an issue for people coming from a Brunswick house and a minor issue going the other way.

The best part of the system, the pin-setter showed a bowler the proper way to pick up any spare........... as long as you were right handed :-)

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#199170 - 03/01/18 08:41 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: 82Boat69]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 796
A/S/L: 38/M/New Jersey
I would have loved to have seen all of it working whether I needed it or not for bowling. Those old systems looked so much nicer than the 2D cardboard graphics that we see today.

When I was younger, the missing dot at the Brunswick houses always threw me off for sure. Where I am, there were/are more AMF houses than Brunswick and the three closest centers to me are all AMF.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#199171 - 03/02/18 04:44 AM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: Mkirchie]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 636
A/S/L: 70/M/California
My fondest memory of the old AMF houses were their pinsetters and their propensity to drop pins while loading them. A person could hang a 4-6 and then when they began to turn around and swear, a pin from nowhere would fall out of the rack and break down the split. The scissor mechanisms were really weak and early mechanics had to spend inordinate amounts of time making sure the pins were all lined up. It wasn't unusual to bowl on a pair that never set down a straight rack. Iíve bowled on lanes where every pin was visible :-)

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#199181 - 03/10/18 02:41 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: 82Boat69]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 636
A/S/L: 70/M/California
I've just finished my last experiment with dual angles and decided to post what I think is the bottom line. Each of us probably have a PSA/dual angle combination that optimizes our abilities.

I say it, but can't really prove it. Anything I might say will be denied by everyone who has experienced something different or claims they have.

What I've discovered for myself, as I use combinations that get farther away from what works best, my balls lose versatility and I need to become much more precise in my release to make them perform.

I've always been able to take any ball that basically fits me and make that ball work. However, by taking balls that fit me perfectly and drilling them with exotic combinations, I can almost make a ball unusable.

I don't think that the details are important. Symmetric, asymmetric, high-RG, low-RG, Diff, balance hole positions, etc. For each of us, based on our PAP, have a drilling combination that orientates the core of a ball in an optimal position. It's why we can all go back through our ball histories and remember balls that we loved.

The opposite is also true. We can all go back through our ball history and remember balls that we never had confidence in or simply performed poorly.

I've discovered for myself that angle sums from 90 degrees to 110 degrees are my limit. It doesn't matter what the surface is, what the RG is, what the Diff is, once I break that rule, no matter what brand or model I throw, it becomes a lot of work to make that ball perform.

My recommendation, take your favorite ball and find out what it's core orientation is to your PAP and write that information down. The next time you get ready to buy a new ball and have it drilled, ask yourself this; If I orientate the core on the new ball similar to an old ball, why am I buying a new ball?

So after experimenting with a dozen balls and spending $1,500, what am I going to be using going forward? A 15 pound Storm Hy-Road drilled 50 x 5 x 50 and a 15 pound Storm Tropical Breeze drilled 60 x 5 x 50.

For my next miracle, I'm going to buy a urethane ball and see if everything I read about urethane is hype :-)

For anyone else who would like to experiment there's an Excel spreadsheet floating around that will convert PSA parameters to dual angle and vice versa. You'll quickly discover that any claim one method is better than another is just 'More hype' :-)

If you can't find the spreadsheet, I'll post the formulas that can be plugged into any Excel spreadsheet.

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#199183 - 03/10/18 04:00 PM Re: Hype Versus Reality [Re: 82Boat69]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 426
A/S/L: 71/m/IL
Very good Boat!
Thanks for the information on your experiment.
I guess I'm doing my own experiment and have gone through a bunch of balls, too. I use urethane without a core for spares using the Storm Mix. I have to keep polishing it up though.
I've checked the layouts of all of my gear and I've not had the results that you mention; however, I see nothing wrong with your choice of a Hy-Road and a Tropical ball. I'd tend to go with a 4" or 3 3/8" pin and a lower VAL angle though. It's too bad that Storm didn't keep their Ride or Joy Ride balls.
I've played with larger VAL angles and it kills the reaction of the ball for me. So I'll keep my VAL angle at 30 degree or lower. My standard for drill angle is 50 degrees and may increase it if the cover is more aggressive.
I have a copy of the conversion spreadsheet you mentioned and it helped me understand better how the dual-angle method of layouts works. Again, thanks to you to getting me to use that method as my PSO uses that almost exclusively.
What I'm gathering is that you went with the 5" pin on the Hy-Road and you like it. Is that right?
My best regards...

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