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#199177 - 03/06/18 12:23 PM Thoughts on Sweeps?
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1381
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
I'm very steady. Since the new year, I've been averaging within 10-15 pins, week to week, with high to low game being 20-30 pins. I like this - it means that I'm dependable. smile

However I hate sweeps.

I hate sweeps because I don't have an "ON" switch where I can pull out a few 250 games to shoot an on-demand 700. Last night I shot 600. And while during the season, I finished with the 7th high average and was typically in the top 5-10, I shot around 20th. Maybe.

I hate sweeps because seemingly everyone else DOES have "ON" switches and just clean up with the Doubles games, which we all put in for whether we like it or not.

Now - this is NOT a rant against the high game. I LOVED seeing an 80YO lady take the top spot with a 750-something handicap. She was SOOOOOO gleeful! smile In the men's side, it was a 70-something doing the same.

What I HATED was all of the high average bowlers bit(hing and moaning about these two low-average high-handicap bowlers beating them out. Well, MOST of them. I got into a few heated arguments defending them.

What I HATED was (and is) the way Doubles works. It rewards the top 5 or so bowlers so they get EVERYTHING.

First and second get top doubles. Good
First and third gets second. Wait. . . ok
Second and third gets third.
First and fourth . . . and it goes on down.

What do you think? How would this work? How about limiting the number of Doubles awards you can get to Three?

To my mind, this would spread the money out more and generate more excitement in the league.

True, the high rollers would hate it - but then many of them are in it for the money anyway so. . . to heck with them! smile They're in the vast minority. . . How about we spread out the rewards a bit?

What do you think?
Avg: 206
Season High Gm: 279 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 762 / Lifetime: 762

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

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#199180 - 03/10/18 02:21 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: mmalsed]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 446
A/S/L: 71/m/IL
mmalsed, Since there isn't much activity on here lately, I thought I'd give you a response. smile
You're doing one helluva job and should be pleased with your results. I on the other hand am all over the darn place and not too pleased.
My team in a men's league isn't loaded up with good bowlers and we tend to see some of what you seem to be witnessing week after week. We see guys with 205 to 215 averages scoring in the 260 to 279 range all the time. So I guess they have an "On" switch. It's like their confidence goes up like gang busters when they're paired up with our basement team.
I would think their "On/Off" switch would be placed in the "On" position when bowling the top level teams rather than when they bowl us, but "Nooooo!" smile
I guess we should move on and take up tiddlywinks or something instead. At least then they wouldn't get our money any more.
Keep up the good work there mmalsed!

#199182 - 03/10/18 02:46 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: djp1080]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 665
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Maybe you have a reputation :-) A few years ago, I was hard to get around in league and in sweepers. Today, not so much. Still, everyone remembers me with their hearts and not their eyes :-) I get pummeled regularly :-) They think I still have an 'A' game, so they bring their 'A' game too.

#199195 - 03/11/18 06:33 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: mmalsed]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2127
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
I've seen a doubles pot like you mentioned that had a way of evening out the money but was so convoluted, no one liked it. Come to think of it, year long progressive doubles pots tend to always get some sort of gripe.

My league does a weekly blind draw. You get a doubles partner for the night, and if you get the high doubles series it adds $20 to your year end winnings. Second place for the night gets $10. It can add significant money. The whining happens when a team that wins the league also has a bowler or two who won a lot of doubles money.

I don't think there's a great way to do doubles. Its splitting up what most people consider to be team money.

Personally, I hate money in leagues. I guess its the best way to convince people to come back week after week, but I'd really rather bowl each night cheaper and be competing for a trophy. No more arguments about this team is too good, that team has too much handicap, that guy is a sandbagger, I don't like this payout etc. To me, the money ruins the bowling.

Have brackets and pots on the side for the guys who want to bowl for money. Let everyone else just have a good time.
Career Highs: 300/759

#199207 - 03/14/18 09:06 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: mmalsed]
BowlerBill Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 09/08/13
Posts: 433
A/S/L: 55/m/Ca
I bowl in a senior scratch league. 570 entering max. there are 5 teams that come in under the max that don't belong. 205 ability but 189 in league. They are hard to beat.

They are impossible to beat on sweeps night as they have handicap and I don't.

I too, wish I could shoot 750 on sweeps to take the money.

Top average range in the league is around 212. There are 4 of us in that area. A few in the mid 190's. The rest of the league is under 190.

I live with it. I won't sand bag to lower my average.

Edited by BowlerBill (03/14/18 09:06 PM)
Mission X, Shatter, Rhino Pro, Virtual Gravity, Disorder, White Dot, Critical
HG 300 (sanctioned),

HS 805 (250, 300, 255) (non-sanctioned)
746 (267, 257, 222) (sanctioned)

#199208 - 03/15/18 04:08 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: mmalsed]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9781
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
There is one house in our association that is a bar with bowling alleys. They are 8 old wooden lanes, not well maintained. Above ground ball returns. And, with minimal oil coverage to uphold its USBC Sanction.

But, the oil doesn't last long, as it immediately seeps between the boards on the lane.

To say the least, it is near impossible to bowl there. I believe high average in the house is about 165. But, they do have one of the largest beer deliveries weekly.

Anyhow, there are annual tournaments in the association that are handicap. And, the bowlers from this house routinely win the tournaments. They are in no other sanction leagues but this house. So, their average gets the cap.

I bowl with another occasionally, and he is a legitimate 200, but has a 165 at that house. Absolutely nothing that can be done, as he is within the rules.

I'm so tired of being second to that guy in the tourneys. I don't get in any longer.

Edited by Dennis Michael (03/15/18 04:09 PM)
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#199210 - 03/15/18 04:18 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: Dennis Michael]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 665
A/S/L: 70/M/California
On tough lanes, the secret is 'spares' not strikes. You need to 'grind' better than your opponents. You also need to avoid, plastic/polyester, urethane and anything reactive.

I would find a good finger-tipped hard-rubber ball and try that. I would also use 16 pounds unless it's just too heavy.

Become a 'stroker'.

Good Luck,

#199211 - 03/15/18 05:01 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: 82Boat69]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 836
A/S/L: 38/M/New Jersey
Dennis can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he is saying that the bowlers only bowl leagues at this house to keep their sanctioned averages down. Then, they go to bowl at the annual association tournament at other houses with much more favorable conditions where they can average 200+ in the tournament and still carry their handicap for the 165 average.

If I'm interpreting that right, that's really sneaky.

Current Average - 225

#199212 - 03/15/18 05:12 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: Mkirchie]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 665
A/S/L: 70/M/California
I thought he was talking about the sweeper in the 'bar'. In that case, it is sneaky.

I went to the USBC tournament once during the administrative week because I knew someone who knew someone :-) I was allowed to go watch how USBC listened to new proposals.

I had always thought that USBC should always base averages on the last 21 games bowled with a 5 pin drop for any 21 game period.

When we arrived, there wasn't a person in attendance who wasn't at least 20 years older than me. These people weren't going to change anything.

So, if you want fairness between leagues/locations don't hold your breath waiting for USBC to do what's right. You'll need to get involved in your local association and have them monitor the problem and if it's as bad as mentioned, do something about it.

Where I bowl, we have the opposite issue. We have too many big averages that can't travel anywhere :-)

#199222 - 03/16/18 12:57 PM Re: Thoughts on Sweeps? [Re: mmalsed]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1381
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
I wasn't talking about differences between leagues. I was talking about within a league.

I don't know of any leagues that use averages from OTHER leagues as their basis except for the first few weeks - after that everything is based on the local (league) average.

These bowlers bowl hard to get their team's position, and even carry a high average to the end, but somehow grab yet another gear for sweeps.

The number of 700s each night . . . maybe 2 or 3. Lots of 600s. (and I'm talking WITH handicap) Just a few 700s.
The number of 700s on SWEEPS . . . around 15. The top 15 money-winning spots were all 700s.

Somehow a LOT of people figured a way to grab an extra gear for one night.

I hate to say sandbagging. . . and some of them weren't (the 80yo and 75yo who took top women's and men's, obviously) . . . but too many were. It's incredibly frustrating.
Avg: 206
Season High Gm: 279 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 762 / Lifetime: 762

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

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