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#198986 - 02/01/18 03:19 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
82Boat69 Online   content
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Registered: 06/24/16
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Are you saying you throw a 3/4-roller of some kind but drill your ball as if you were a full roller?

If you throw a full roller, I don't think your ball is flaring at all. If you are, you would be hitting both the thumb and finger holes.

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#198987 - 02/01/18 07:57 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
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Registered: 01/14/07
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Originally Posted By: nord
I think it is a combination of new lane surfaces with new ball coverstocks.
Mostly new ball tech.

I do agree that new ball tech is more responsible for how things are now. Although I am not sure about the different formulations of lacquer that a center could choose from to finish the lanes, I'd imagine that there weren't too many choices for proprietors. Since the wood used on the lanes was roughly similar (not taking conditioner into account), there likely wasn't much physical difference in the lanes themselves.

However, when the harder lane finishes and surfaces were created, ball companies started to experiment to find softer surfaces to regain the lost friction. It is much easier (and cheaper) for a ball company to experiment with the surface of a ball that is being manufactured than it would have been for a proprietor or companies that created urethane finishes to constantly adjust the surface of the lanes. I guess what I'm getting at is friction went from being relatively constant and controlled more by the construction of the lanes to greatly varying and being controlled more by the bowling balls because the balls are easier to change than the actual lane surface. Again, just my thoughts.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#198988 - 02/01/18 09:29 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Mkirchie]
82Boat69 Online   content
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Changing oil patterns could be useful, but I think going forward, USBC should look at bowling ball surface, i.e. peaks, valleys and the distance between them to control ball motion. Lower the peaks in the surface, raise the valleys and move it all closer together and flare can be cut in half pretty quickly. No flare, no motion. Problem solved. For manufacturers, can they charge $200+ for a ball that goes straight :-) SR-Ra and SR-Rs may well become more important than RG and Diff.

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#198989 - 02/01/18 11:28 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: 82Boat69]
nord Offline
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Registered: 10/27/11
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Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
Are you saying you throw a 3/4-roller of some kind but drill your ball as if you were a full roller?

If you throw a full roller, I don't think your ball is flaring at all. If you are, you would be hitting both the thumb and finger holes.

Actually I am a Classic Vintage Full Roller using the classic suitcase release.
There were Full Rollers who came more up the back of the ball like Billy Hardwick and if he used a modern ball would not get much flare.
But I am more like a Ned Day Full Roller. Ned got a ton of hook on his ball and no doubt would get a ton of flare with the right ball.
I have a 90 degree axis rotation that also leads to a big precession of the core.
I use very high tech Full Roller drillings on my balls as well to maximize flare potential, yet, the amount a ball flares depends mostly on the core of the ball, how it is drilled and how you release it.

Below are two of my urethane balls and the flare I get on them.
Both have the same exact layout.
The difference is the Widow Urethane has a high flaring asymmetric core while the purple Hammer has a low flaring symmetric core.
The center of the bowtie for a Classic Full Roller will be right in the middle of the palm.
This aggressive layout is designed to maximize ball dynamics, but assure the procession of the ball track stays in the middle of the palm, avoiding the holes.


Attachments
Black Widow Urethane Layout.jpg

Widow Flare.JPG

Purple Hammer Layout.jpg

Purple Hammer Flare Rings.JPG


_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane

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#198990 - 02/01/18 11:47 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
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Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 792
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Out of curiosity nord, if you don't get your ball completely clean of oil before the next shot does the oil hitting your palm bother you? I've mentioned before how my track is pretty close to my finger holes and I will sometimes overlap my track with my index finger. If I feel that oil on my finger, it does sort of distract me.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#198991 - 02/01/18 11:54 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: 82Boat69]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1378
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
Changing oil patterns could be useful, but I think going forward, USBC should look at bowling ball surface, i.e. peaks, valleys and the distance between them to control ball motion. Lower the peaks in the surface, raise the valleys and move it all closer together and flare can be cut in half pretty quickly. No flare, no motion. Problem solved. For manufacturers, can they charge $200+ for a ball that goes straight :-) SR-Ra and SR-Rs may well become more important than RG and Diff.


That's a very very difficult thing to enforce. Never want a rule that is not enforceable.

I used to run and organize rally races and one of our classes was entirely tire-based. We had goofy rules about the width of the sipe (grooves in the tires) but it was extremely difficult to enforce that rule even though it SHOULD be pretty easy - but the temp of the tire would make the rubber contract/expand and change what was a legal sipe into one that was not legal or vice versa. Sipes are also molded in a tapered shape so what might have been an illegal tire could become legal after a certain amount of wear.

Point of the analogy - if you can't easily enforce something then you have a bad rule.

ABC used to have (think they still do, but don't enforce it) a durometer reading rule (esp back in the LT-48 days) so tourney organizers had to have (and maintain) a durometer if they wanted to avoid any controversy (well, the controversy would still be there. . .) and it had to be the proper durometer (there are many depending on the material and hardness - my tire durometer was different from my RC foam tire durometer which was different from the one we used for bowling balls.)

You're asking for a microscope and someone who can interpret that image in an objective fashion. It's a road into a nasty situation.
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#198992 - 02/01/18 12:58 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: mmalsed]
82Boat69 Online   content
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Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 631
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USBC already sets a number of parameters and ball manufacturers have to meet those parameters or their balls won't get certified. Limiting Ra and Rs would simply be 2 more.

I'm not familiar with what difficulty would be involved with modifying the surface of a ball produced within the rules to something outside the rules, but making peaks higher, valleys lower and distance between them greater, seems like a lot of work for your average player. Pros are watched even closer.

Like pre-certifying lanes, if someone wants to break the rules bad enough, they will. Eventually, they'll get caught and that will be that.

Looking at ways to reign in unrealistic scores, reducing flare seems like something that could be done over time and everyone would just get use to scoring a little lower. Another possibility would be to use a filler on a ball's surface to keep it from soaking up oil. Then, instead of lanes breaking down as they do now, bowlers would have to wait until the oil pushes off the back-ends or gets wiped off as everyone bowls.

If USBC wanted to reign in scores, they could a number of ways. Right now, because the sport is shrinking, I imagine the fear of creating 'the final straw' has them shaking in their boots.

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#198993 - 02/01/18 02:38 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: 82Boat69]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 792
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
If USBC wanted to reign in scores, they could a number of ways. Right now, because the sport is shrinking, I imagine the fear of creating 'the final straw' has them shaking in their boots.

That is my concern. It seems that almost every decision they make is viewed as negative by a large number of bowlers and the general view of the organization as a whole is negative.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#198994 - 02/01/18 03:04 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Mkirchie]
82Boat69 Online   content
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 631
A/S/L: 70/M/California
I remember how the ABC lost control. I see USBC heading in the same direction.

In my opinion, the secret to bowling's longevity was in junior leagues. Getting kids interest at an early age, even if it meant a house would lose money on those junior leagues.

Today, there's nobody in the pipeline. Bowling, which takes planning, commitment, time and travel simply can't compete with a hand-held device that can be enjoyed at any moment.

30 years ago I remember watching junior leagues where the adults constantly had to find kids up on the concourse playing pinball or video games when they should have been bowling. It was obvious bowling just wasn't exciting enough for kids brought up on Sesame Street and instant gratification.

Where I bowl, we have high school kids come in twice a week. Watching them, they bowl as quickly as possible so they can sit down and talk or play on their phones. Bowling is more of an irritant and simply replaces PE.

In the mid-west and north-east, bowling still holds on. Here in CA, as soon as the weather turns warm, business disappears.

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#198995 - 02/01/18 03:04 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 757
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Mkirchie
Out of curiosity nord, if you don't get your ball completely clean of oil before the next shot does the oil hitting your palm bother you? I've mentioned before how my track is pretty close to my finger holes and I will sometimes overlap my track with my index finger. If I feel that oil on my finger, it does sort of distract me.
Mark

I am obsessive with wiping the oil off my urethane ball before every strike attempt and for every spare but the 10 pin.
I leave the oil on for 10 pins to get me that extra slide and to reduce the chance the ball will hook away.
I have never felt any oil on my palm because I hold the ball from above like a junk yard claw and there is a gap between my palm and the ball.
The ball just hangs from my fingers.
See below:


Attachments
Gap between palm and ball.png


_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane

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