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#198975 - 01/31/18 01:53 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Dylan585 Offline
2X Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 292
A/S/L: 20/m/ny
Nord, How would you compare the Crow to the Judge
_________________________
2 handed stats:

High game: 288 (2 times now!)
High series: 710
Average: 197

Bag: Original Burgandy Hammer, Genesis the judge, motiv Forza gt, motiv Arctic sniper

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#198976 - 01/31/18 05:17 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Dylan585]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Dylan585
Nord, How would you compare the Crow to the Judge

Answer:
The Crow is infinitely stronger than the Judge and can be used at 500 stock grit on any volume house shot.
The Crow also has quite a bit of backend snap for a urethane ball.
The Judge cannot handle modern oils and if it gets wet, even at stock 320 grit, will lose all its traction and just become a spare ball, at least for a low rev player like myself.
Even using a shammy or cleaning fluid will not help get the reaction back shot to shot for the Judge, the modern oils are just too slick.
Remember, the Judge is actually a Vintage Black Hammer with the original Black Hammer urethane formulation designed for 1980's lane oils which were no where near as slick as the Duralubes they use today on the lanes.
The Judge is great for old style lanes, or very low volume house shots.
The Crow is really strong and snappy (for a urethane) and is for modern lanes.
The Crow is almost as strong as my Midnight Scorcher!
The thing that I find that I tend not to like about the Crow is the strong backend it has.
The Crow can go sideways on you when you least expect it and it is harder for me to be consistent with it shot to shot because of all that backend.
It is more like a reactive ball.
The Black Widow Urethane on the other hand I love because it has no backend and just rolls all the way with a smooth easy arc that is easy to control the pocket with.
When I ball down to my Purple Hammer it goes longer and has more backend snap, but less than the Crow so the Purple is easier to control.
The Crow is like a Reactive/Urethane, but the Judge is pure urethane control, straight and easy and the Judge hits really hard too with that vintage two piece construction.

EVen though I bowl differntly today, these videos of the ball reactions of the Judge and the Crow are still valuable.

The Judge:
Look how easy it comes off the back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCn0z6SAQGE

The Crow:
Look at how strong it is in the back. When it goes it goes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIEDkKpwmBo
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

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#198977 - 01/31/18 06:29 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Dylan585 Offline
2X Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 292
A/S/L: 20/m/ny
Interesting... I'm looking for a ball to act as a bridge between my Judge and reactive balls... The crow might do that... I'm not asking you do this but I think it would be really interesting to see you take a few different urethane balls and play the same line with them to see like the differences between true urethane and the modern "urethane"
_________________________
2 handed stats:

High game: 288 (2 times now!)
High series: 710
Average: 197

Bag: Original Burgandy Hammer, Genesis the judge, motiv Forza gt, motiv Arctic sniper

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#198978 - 01/31/18 06:47 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Dylan585]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Dylan585
I'm not asking you do this but I think it would be really interesting to see you take a few different urethane balls and play the same line with them to see like the differences between true urethane and the modern "urethane"

That would be a very interesting experiment that I will plan on doing soon.
But till then here is a video of The Crow vs. the Marvel S.
Urethane vs. Reactive.
Both are at stock grit, on the same house shot, at the same time, one shot after the other.
I tried to make the same shots with both balls to show the difference.
Let's just say The Crow out-hooked the Marvel S easily and not until the lane got really dry would the Marvel S even do anything.

https://youtu.be/fQeTjBc5hQ0
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

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#198979 - 01/31/18 07:08 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Dylan585 Offline
2X Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 292
A/S/L: 20/m/ny
Thanks for that one! I look forward to seeing the all urethane one! Ill try to make one as well
_________________________
2 handed stats:

High game: 288 (2 times now!)
High series: 710
Average: 197

Bag: Original Burgandy Hammer, Genesis the judge, motiv Forza gt, motiv Arctic sniper

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#198980 - 01/31/18 07:33 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Dylan585]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 647
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Is there a difference between 'old' urethane and 'new' urethane?

I think its more likely that the cores of the new balls simply create more flare than the old cores.

Wood is much softer than any synthetic lane. If you own an old Hammer and still have a place in town with wood lanes, the reaction is still as dramatic as it was in the 70's. If you take that same ball and throw it on a synthetic lane, it pretty much goes straight.

Modern cores weigh around 11 pounds. That's almost 75% of a 15 pound ball's weight. Back in the 70's, the cores were nowhere near that heavy and didn't have nearly the impact on the ball's reaction as they do now.

I have an old Faball Black Hammer drilled leverage weighted and it only creates an inch or so of flare on wood. On synthetic lanes, it doesn't flare at all. I might as well be throwing an 'ACE'.

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#198981 - 01/31/18 10:21 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Dylan585 Offline
2X Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 292
A/S/L: 20/m/ny
Heck yea... Most urethane balls are not true urethane
_________________________
2 handed stats:

High game: 288 (2 times now!)
High series: 710
Average: 197

Bag: Original Burgandy Hammer, Genesis the judge, motiv Forza gt, motiv Arctic sniper

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#198982 - 01/31/18 10:30 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: 82Boat69]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
Is there a difference between 'old' urethane and 'new' urethane?

I think its more likely that the cores of the new balls simply create more flare than the old cores.

Wood is much softer than any synthetic lane. If you own an old Hammer and still have a place in town with wood lanes, the reaction is still as dramatic as it was in the 70's. If you take that same ball and throw it on a synthetic lane, it pretty much goes straight.

Modern cores weigh around 11 pounds. That's almost 75% of a 15 pound ball's weight. Back in the 70's, the cores were nowhere near that heavy and didn't have nearly the impact on the ball's reaction as they do now.

I have an old Faball Black Hammer drilled leverage weighted and it only creates an inch or so of flare on wood. On synthetic lanes, it doesn't flare at all. I might as well be throwing an 'ACE'.


It is more than the core.
It is really the coverstock that makes the big difference.
I have an AMF Angle Plus urethane that has a pancake weight block, but...Ron Machniak of Precision Bowling gave me a layout that is the equivalent of the PBA Plastic Ball layout, but for Full Roller.
This ball flares as much as my Widow Urethane, about 5 inches!
At Poway it is virtually unusable because it is so strong.
But on normal synthetic house shots it will not grab at all.
Why?
The coverstock.
This cover was created for conditions of the 80's.
The oil is too slick today.
If the volume was real low it would work ok on synthetic lanes.
But House Shot volume is too high and too slick.
Same happens with The Judge, spare ball on normal synthetic house shots, but monster on low volume.

The one standout is The Grizz.
This ball at 320 grit will roll on modern house shots and with the simple CG in palm drilling I have on it, it does not flare more than one inch.
It is a pretty cool urethane ball.
I bowled a no-tap 300 with it at Poway and I actually had 7 real strikes in a row in that no tap.
I was using it at some new lanes and it was grabbing enough that I had to move in and play a 12 to 10 tip shot keeping it in the oil the whole way.
When the ball came back it had basically no oil on it.
I was puzzled and figured there was no oil on the lane and that is why I had to move in with the Grizz.
So I pulled out my rubber ball and made an up second arrow shot and the rubber ball hit the right side of the 3 pin.
It never moved an inch.
When I got my rubber ball back after that first throw it was drenched!
So what I learned is The Grizz was sucking up the oil like a thirsty Grizzly Bear!
It actually was absorbing the oil.
I really love The Grizz because it has such a tiny move left that I have total control with it and it keeps me way out of trouble.
Again this ball rolls hard but has virtually zero flare.
Here is a video showing it in action on the lanes I mentioned.
Watch how subtle this ball is in its overall movement.
It is the least moving ball I have, yet I favor this type of reaction.
This is why I love urethane.

https://youtu.be/A3py5SauDXE




Edited by nord (01/31/18 10:43 PM)
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

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#198984 - 01/31/18 10:51 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: 82Boat69]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 802
A/S/L: 38/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: 82boat69
Is there a difference between 'old' urethane and 'new' urethane?

I think its more likely that the cores of the new balls simply create more flare than the old cores.

In my experience, I can say that my Super Natural flares way more (about 4") than my Ebonite Turbo, which flares about 1". Both are used on 22 year old AMF synthetics with lots of friction. When I had my Super Natural drilled, I requested it to flare. When the Turbo was drilled around 23 years ago, I was still learning a lot and it was drilled right on label with the pin very close to the center of my grip. I imagine that the drilling does play into the difference a little, but I don't think it can make up the last 3". With that said, I can play pretty much the same line with either ball and it is a matter of which one carries better.

Originally Posted By: 82boat69
Wood is much softer than any synthetic lane.

I already had thoughts about this related to the "what's wrong with bowling" debate. Regardless of what the solutions might be, we know that a lot of heat has been thrown on the USBC and ball manufacturers. I think something else could be held responsible (although not intentional) and it relates to the bowling boom of the late 50's to early 60's. Plenty of centers were built, and I believe that those who built them were business oriented people interested in profits first and bowling second.

The soft lacquer finishes that required periodic maintenance caused centers to close to perform the work. Due to the volatility of the lacquer, proprietors had trouble obtaining insurance or said insurance was very costly. Proprietors (and the industry) looked for more durable and less volatile finishes, which led to the urethane finishes. The hard urethane finishes with hard plastic balls gave birth to the soaker/bleeder. Synthetics followed only a few years later. What if the change from lacquer to urethane finishes and synthetic lanes triggered where we are? What if that change never happened? Just a thought.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#198985 - 02/01/18 12:34 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Mkirchie
Originally Posted By: 82boat69
Is there a difference between 'old' urethane and 'new' urethane?

I think its more likely that the cores of the new balls simply create more flare than the old cores.

In my experience, I can say that my Super Natural flares way more (about 4") than my Ebonite Turbo, which flares about 1". Both are used on 22 year old AMF synthetics with lots of friction. When I had my Super Natural drilled, I requested it to flare. When the Turbo was drilled around 23 years ago, I was still learning a lot and it was drilled right on label with the pin very close to the center of my grip. I imagine that the drilling does play into the difference a little, but I don't think it can make up the last 3". With that said, I can play pretty much the same line with either ball and it is a matter of which one carries better.

Originally Posted By: 82boat69
Wood is much softer than any synthetic lane.

I already had thoughts about this related to the "what's wrong with bowling" debate. Regardless of what the solutions might be, we know that a lot of heat has been thrown on the USBC and ball manufacturers. I think something else could be held responsible (although not intentional) and it relates to the bowling boom of the late 50's to early 60's. Plenty of centers were built, and I believe that those who built them were business oriented people interested in profits first and bowling second.

The soft lacquer finishes that required periodic maintenance caused centers to close to perform the work. Due to the volatility of the lacquer, proprietors had trouble obtaining insurance or said insurance was very costly. Proprietors (and the industry) looked for more durable and less volatile finishes, which led to the urethane finishes. The hard urethane finishes with hard plastic balls gave birth to the soaker/bleeder. Synthetics followed only a few years later. What if the change from lacquer to urethane finishes and synthetic lanes triggered where we are? What if that change never happened? Just a thought.
Mark

I think it is a combination of new lane surfaces with new ball coverstocks.
Mostly new ball tech.
Rubber was it, then Polyester came in, probably for economic reasons and not performance, since polyester has a weaker reaction than rubber.
When Urethane lanes came in then urethane balls came in to match up with the lanes.
Today we say urethane balls do not absorb oil, but in the old days urethane balls absorbed oil like a sponge, broke the lane down and had to be de-oiled frequently.

Here is an excerpt from an article on the evolution of ball tech:
"A problem with early models of urethane balls was that they tended to soak up the lane conditioner.
As a result, it would be necessary to periodically wash the ball in hot water and detergent to remove the lane conditioner from the pores of the surface."


Here is the full article:
https://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/bowling-ball-evolution
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

Top
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