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#198923 - 01/28/18 01:28 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 756
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Mkirchie
Originally Posted By: nord
They really should be banned so players can get back to being shot makers and requiring skill to bowl.

I know this is a topic you have brought up in the past. While I agree that reactive has affected bowling, I do not think that they should be banned. Regardless of what is being used, those who really know what they are doing are easily identifiable by watching them. Their average is just a number, not a true measure of ability.

I also feel that such a ban is not feasible and could cause a further decline in league bowling. With bowlers already complaining about USBC dues, having them tell bowlers they can no longer use reactive would be a disaster. Regardless of whether it was right or not for the USBC to do this, people were not happy with the USBC when they revoked the certifications of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage. Telling them to replace most, if not all of their arsenal would likely cause a mass exodus. Also, a lot of league bowlers do not take bowling seriously enough anymore to embrace such a challenge to their game.

As a bowler who does use reactive and urethane, my mindset does not change depending on what I am using. I still want to hit my target at all the same release parameters. Plenty of bowlers who use resin do not use it as a crutch to fix flaws in their physical game, they're the ones you can talk to about making adjustments and notice when you're mechanics are off. Please do not think that all bowlers who use resin have no clue what they are doing.
Mark

I do believe what you said above is essentially true.
Bowling has been damaged big time.
The magical old days of the giants of bowling during the 60s and 70s is gone.
Men and women showing up in their finest dresses and suits to watch giants like [censored] Weber and Don Carter bowl are gone.
Men who were paid more money to bowl than professional baseball and football players of that age.
When the major networks gave up on bowling and Chris Schenkel and Bo Burton were gone, that was the final end.
It is really sad, truly.

Yet I love the game and try to honor it today.

Quote:
I never want to let bowlers who are bowling better than their physical game because of any advantage from using resin bother me. It's not going to help me bowl any better and more likely to make me bowl worse.


I try not to let it bother me, but it does because I know the history of bowling, of how amazingly hard this game is and what has been done to it with Resin and house shots.

I love urethane, but would gladly go back to just rubber balls if that decision was made. My all time high game was bowled with my Billy Hardwick rubber ball and I am very proud of that achievement.

I think the USBC and the bowling world in general knows that Resin has screwed everything up.
The Genie was let out of the bottle and they don't know how to put it back in.
And we know what Genies do, they cause untold trouble.

My doubles partner is a very good bowler with great style and mechanics who took lessons from Mark Baker.
But he uses reactive for that edge. He knows he would average much lower with anything else and when I try to get him to use his urethane ball in non-competition, just for fun, he wont, he wants to score high every time.

Honestly, I would only use my one rubber ball for all bowling if I could, but modern lanes and oil simply will not allow that ball to hook.
So my compromise up from that is urethane. A ball that can grab and carry, but still requires careful form and shot making ability to do it.

Last year I won the Parkway Yuletide no-tap tournament using my Dark Legend Solid reactive ball and bowling a 933 with one 300 game.
This year I used my Widow Urethane and came in 7th bowling an 878 with no 300 games.

Could I have won again if I used reactive? Maybe.
But it was my choice not to find out and instead to see if my skill level was high enough to get urethane to give me the same scores.
In the end I was close to a 300 but made mistakes in the 10th by getting splits in game 2 and 3.
I missed and the ball did not help me. That's on me and that's the way it should be.

I bowl in a league at Poway bowl.
I can use rubber on these lanes because the volume is so low and the lanes so old and worn.
The side walls do not allow pins to really kick off.
No dramatic messengers at Poway.
A bowler was telling me when I was there in league that he averages 220 at Kearny Bowl on the Big Ben pattern they put down there.
But at Poway he is lucky if he can average 180.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane

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#198925 - 01/28/18 05:14 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
82Boat69 Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 572
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Can anyone name a successful sport that was made more successful by making it more difficult?

Bowling will disappear for the simple reason, the real-estate that bowling alleys take up is worth more as another business.

Like a vanishing animal species, when the population of bowlers becomes too small, nobody will build a new bowling alley and the end will come quickly.

Even today, finding replacement parts is difficult.

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#198926 - 01/28/18 07:03 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1121
A/S/L: 61/M /Georgia
Originally Posted By: nord

They really should be banned so players can get back to being shot makers and requiring skill to bowl.

Banning equipment would not be good for bowling. USBC was already contemplating changing the DIFF specification and now USBC is suggesting banning motion holes. USBC's own study found that lane patterns are the most impactful, feasible way to make the bowling environment more difficult. So why change equipment when you can change patterns. Well goes back to enforcement by the centers. By making it more difficult the bowlers complain centers will give in. No matter whate USBC does will alienate some of its members.

As for urethane I am happy that it works for you Nord. I have thrown various urethane balls at demos and they just do not match up well with me.
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#198927 - 01/28/18 08:43 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 757
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: nord
I missed and the ball did not help me. That's on me and that's the way it should be.

What I feel is interesting is I feel that reactive has had a different effect on the game than you do. Where you look at the corrections it can make for inaccurate shots, I look more at the effect it had on the hitting power of lower rev bowlers or the hook-in-a-box effect. I know he is a legend, I don't mean this in any way to discredit his talent, and he is one of my all-time favorite pros, but WRW Jr. won 6 titles from 1986-1992 in the urethane era. From 1993-1999 in the resin era (it looked like he mostly used a Crush/R in 1993 in videos on youtube) he had 24 titles. He won more titles in 1993 than he did previously in his entire career. He did benefit from the advent of resin for the extra pop it would give on top of his insane accuracy and consistency, but everyone had access to it so I would not view it as unfair or not deserved.

I see plenty of bowlers who have weak releases striking consistently who I know would have trouble carrying without resin. They got entry angle and power without developing a stronger release. To me, it's the ridiculously blocked patterns that is the biggest factor in the recovery of poor shots. Put the bowlers who are not accurate on much flatter shots and it won't matter what they use, it isn't going to save their bad shots. Weak releases with urethane on blocked lanes will have trouble carrying.

Bowling isn't just accuracy/consistency or just power/revs, it is both. You want to get the ball to the same place of the pocket, but you also need it to transfer energy to knock down 35 pounds of wood and plastic (or just plastic if you have Twister pins). If it were only accuracy, we'd put a sensor on the 17.5 board and see if the ball hits the sensor and stop there. If it was only power, we'd have a sensor determine who can get a ball to reach the roll phase at the greatest speed and closest to a 6 degree entry angle and not worry about where the ball is located on the lane.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#198928 - 01/28/18 06:27 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 756
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Mkirchie
Originally Posted By: nord
I missed and the ball did not help me. That's on me and that's the way it should be.

What I feel is interesting is I feel that reactive has had a different effect on the game than you do. Where you look at the corrections it can make for inaccurate shots, I look more at the effect it had on the hitting power of lower rev bowlers or the hook-in-a-box effect. I know he is a legend, I don't mean this in any way to discredit his talent, and he is one of my all-time favorite pros, but WRW Jr. won 6 titles from 1986-1992 in the urethane era. From 1993-1999 in the resin era (it looked like he mostly used a Crush/R in 1993 in videos on youtube) he had 24 titles. He won more titles in 1993 than he did previously in his entire career. He did benefit from the advent of resin for the extra pop it would give on top of his insane accuracy and consistency, but everyone had access to it so I would not view it as unfair or not deserved.

I see plenty of bowlers who have weak releases striking consistently who I know would have trouble carrying without resin. They got entry angle and power without developing a stronger release. To me, it's the ridiculously blocked patterns that is the biggest factor in the recovery of poor shots. Put the bowlers who are not accurate on much flatter shots and it won't matter what they use, it isn't going to save their bad shots. Weak releases with urethane on blocked lanes will have trouble carrying.

Bowling isn't just accuracy/consistency or just power/revs, it is both. You want to get the ball to the same place of the pocket, but you also need it to transfer energy to knock down 35 pounds of wood and plastic (or just plastic if you have Twister pins). If it were only accuracy, we'd put a sensor on the 17.5 board and see if the ball hits the sensor and stop there. If it was only power, we'd have a sensor determine who can get a ball to reach the roll phase at the greatest speed and closest to a 6 degree entry angle and not worry about where the ball is located on the lane.
Mark


You made a lot of great points.
"Above 180" has two great articles that are worth the read on this very subject.
There is photo of WRW in the Helped by Resin article to support the point you made above.

Top 10 Bowlers Helped By Resin
http://above180.com/2012/08/top-10-bowlers-helped-by-resin/

Top 10 Bowlers Hurt By Reactive Resin
http://above180.com/2012/08/top-10-bowlers-hurt-by-reactive-resin/

Quote:
To me, it's the ridiculously blocked patterns that is the biggest factor in the recovery of poor shots. Put the bowlers who are not accurate on much flatter shots and it won't matter what they use, it isn't going to save their bad shots.

I would love to see this happen. I am tired of seeing gutter bumps.
At Poway one week they put down the "Dead Man's Curve" pattern and did not tell us.
My partner tried to play his 10 to 6 shot expecting it to bump back to the pocket and guess what, it just faded off to the right and hit the 3-6.
He was shocked. I did well with my rubber ball by just going right up 12 nice and easy. Eventually he got the message and followed my line with success.

Quote:
Weak releases with urethane on blocked lanes will have trouble carrying.
Not sure I understand what you mean here. I use urethane on blocked lanes and it works great. By blocked I assume you mean the normal blocked house shot?
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane

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#198929 - 01/28/18 07:00 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 757
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Yeah, I had seen both of those articles before too, they are both good reads.

In my previous post, I meant the normal blocked THS. Weak release wasn't the best choice of words for me to use, I should have said highly speed dominant instead. In other wotds, they can't get the ball to transition correctly to carry.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#198931 - 01/28/18 09:48 PM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Mkirchie]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9651
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
i would suggest it's more a matter of revs then speed. And, that comes from your comment of weak release.
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#198932 - 01/29/18 12:04 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 756
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Mkirchie

In my previous post, I meant the normal blocked THS. Weak release wasn't the best choice of words for me to use, I should have said highly speed dominant instead. In other wotds, they can't get the ball to transition correctly to carry.

Mark

So you mean a Speed Dominant player who has been spoiled on a House shot using reactive will try urethane and the ball will simply not hook and they will throw up their hands in disgust and wonder what is wrong with that dumb urethane ball and pick up their silly cheater ball and go back to their skilless Goldilocks lane play and be happy again?

Excuse my run on sentence. grin
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane

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#198933 - 01/29/18 09:24 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9651
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
The simple answer is, YES.

They need the dry to make the ball react. And, many need length so they push the ball out. That combo doesn't work for Urethane.


Edited by Dennis Michael (01/29/18 09:24 AM)
_________________________
LM - Black Diamond 15#
Lord Field - Exodus Pearl 15#
Legends - L/M New Terminator 15#
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




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#198934 - 01/29/18 10:15 AM Re: Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 757
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
That is what I meant in my post. I've seen a lot of negative opinions in different places online about urethane and I always wonder about how bowlers who have that opinion try to utilize such balls. If it doesn't match what they want to do, that is not a reason to blast them as useless.
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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