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#198820 - 01/03/18 11:14 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1381
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
Very nice! I really like involved PSO's.
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#198822 - 01/03/18 01:40 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 433
A/S/L: 71/m/IL
Goobee,
My PAP is 5 1/2 x 15/16 up.
Have a high track with low tilt and somewhere between stroker and tweener.
IMHO the layout he put on that ball should be pretty darn good (not that I know a darn thing). I've had good success with the pin to PAP of 3 3/8 which is the most flare for a symmetrical ball especially. The drilling angle I've been going with is anywhere from 60 to 45 degrees and the VAL angle is normally 25 or 30 degrees for a good snap on the backend.
Congrats on finding someone you can work with and help you. It's worth a bunch!!!
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#198823 - 01/03/18 02:37 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: djp1080]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 659
A/S/L: 70/M/California
The layout mentioned is almost identical to the 'high track' dual angle layout recommended by Mo Pinel.

My PAP is 6-3/16 over and 3/8 Down. Low tilt, between 30-45 degrees of axis rotation, 315-325 RPM's with 13.5 MPH at the cameras.

I shoot on a 40' THS with most of the oil between 7 boards. The layout mentioned skids too far on fresh oil and even if the layout allows the ball to recover, it's pretty much unwound and comes in with too much entry angle for my RPM's. The result is too many soft 10's and saw-ball 7 pins. Pocket 7-10's is another symptom of the deflection that occurs. On a shorter THS, maybe 36 feet, it might be okay. The ball mentioned isn't very aggressive which may also exacerbate the skid issues. I would recommend a more acute drilling angle to get the ball into the hook phase sooner. I would recommend a longer pin-to-PAP distance to reduce flare and conserve some RPM's for later. Finally, I would open up the VAL angle so the ball still has plenty of RPM's when the roll phase begins.

A big ball motion is meaningless if when it hits the pocket, it hits like a powder-puff. I have a ball drilled identically to what Mo Pinel recommended and it's collecting dust.

Rather than get all excited about angles, a person should strive to use the total of the angles. On dry conditions, 120 or above. Medium, 100 or above. Heavy 90 or above. 'High Track' players are more susceptible to flaring out than others, so I recommend being conservative on a first drilling.

The difference between 60 x 5 x 40 and 45 x 5 x 55 is only in the mid-lane. The average person won't even notice the difference in back-ends. However, a ball with more speed and more RPM's coming off the pattern will have more hitting power in it's roll phase than a ball coming off the pattern which is quickly slowing down and whose RPM's have been diminished by too much ball motion (i.e. flare).

If a person searches the internet with 'rack attack pearl ball reaction videos', they will find a dozen showing the ball's reaction with different THS's and different dual angles.

It will be interesting to hear what happens :-)

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#198827 - 01/06/18 07:11 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
goobee Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 543
A/S/L: 58/M/Sunny California
I used Barry Asher's bowling clinic today to try out the new ball out and apply the tips learned earlier in the week. We were on fresh which was not good for this ball. I made the best of it but could not get a good feel for the ball. I'll need to bowl with it some more and also open up the thumbhole, it's way too tight.

Barry tweaked my arm swing some more; looks like I'm not muscling it, just need to smooth out the motion. He also adjusted my approach speed a bit, I was not accelerating into my slide.

I caught myself coming out from the side of the ball a few times, old ways are hard to change.



Edited by goobee (01/06/18 07:13 PM)
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#198829 - 01/06/18 11:25 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9763
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
This whole discussion has me bewildered. Oh, I know my preferred angles. But, it just seemed like less trial and error to get a label drilling with pin out. Rather then multiple stabs at the right drilling.

with Label drilling, I am telling the ball what I want to do. Rather then with Dual angles, the ball is telling me what it can do. And, that may or may not be what I want.

I have never seen so many balls being discarded in so short of time, as I have recently. People just don't want that trial, plug and redrill. Personally, I believe it wastes my time and bottles up the ball for days, just drying plug material.

To me, Dual angle drilling has one good feature.... It is repeatable to drill another ball. But, that ball may not be useful under the same lane condition. So, I shake my head, WHY?


Edited by Dennis Michael (01/06/18 11:27 PM)
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#198831 - 01/07/18 02:43 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: Dennis Michael]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 659
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Do you just buy any set of clothes that fit? Or do you buy shoes, shirts and pants based on size? Why?

Every lane you bowl on can be broken down into 3 distinct areas. Knowing your PAP and using dual angles to optimize your ball's performance in each of those areas will give you a big advantage over those who don't.

I carry 4 balls with me. One is a spare ball. The other 3 all have different surfaces and different angles. Each has it's place based on the conditions I bowl on.

I'm 70 and still average 210. Sometimes higher. Not because I'm stronger, but because I'm smarter. I've take the time to optimize my equipment to my game and the conditions I shoot on. When conditions break-down, my opponents take off on fishing expeditions. I don't. I have a plan and the equipment to put that plan to work.

The question, why are some of the brightest people in the game proponents of dual angles? Because dual angles take guessing out of the equation. Why spend $229.95 and then simply drill over the label? Such a drilling will not take your release into consideration. Won't control your skid. Won't control your flare. Won't control your roll.

Someone once said the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over but expect a different result. I contend label drilling accomplishes the same result.

For the young with canons for arms and spring steel for wrists, it probably does't matter much how they drill their balls. But for the rest of us just trying to do our best, using dual angles give us an extra edge over those who don't.

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#198836 - 01/08/18 11:37 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1381
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
to answer with less superiority. . .

I think Dual Angle gives more personal drilling than does the older more generic drillings.

Yes, those drillings work. They have worked for quite a while, and it would be interesting to see what they end up being in dual-angle parlance. Just re-engineer what the angles are.

However, with the label drillings, or pin-up/pin-down or whatever drillings, they don't take into account your PAP, they don't match the ball SPECIFICALLY to you.

When I got my equipment drilled, back in the day, I got my hand measured and then went away. I came back and if I liked what came out, then it was awesome. Several times I didn't really get what I was hoping for.

NOW, I can talk with my old PSO and discuss with him what I want. I want one ball that goes longer on dry because my new house is quite dry. I want another that would be when that house is what THEY call wet (LOL) and would work at my old house when it is what they call dry . . . and another for when both are wet or I go to Vegas for something. (plus my white dot for spares) I can get very specific and they match ME.

I think that's really what it is. It's a refined and personal method of laying out the ball.
_________________________
Avg: 206
Season High Gm: 279 / Lifetime: 290
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#198838 - 01/08/18 01:26 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: mmalsed]
djp1080 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 433
A/S/L: 71/m/IL
Very good mmalsed,
I found that Storm bowling had developed a Vector Layout System that is a specialized Excel spreadsheet for helping one find out how to layout a ball according to Storm's recommendations. I played around with it and then finally decided to get a new ball. Took the recommended dimensions with me to the Pro Shop and he thought that they looked pretty good based upon how I tend to roll the ball. It worked out well.
Later on I learned a bit about the dual-angle method and found an article on the BluePrint website that describes the results of their method pretty nicely. Here's the link:
http://www.blueprintbowling.com/Documents/Bowling%20Ball%20Track%20Flare%20Explained.pdf

If this link doesn't work for you, try searching for Powerhouse Ball Track Flare Explained. I believe this is a valuable article to get a better explanation of how layouts can affect ball reaction.

Next I found a spreadsheet that converts Dual Angle layouts to PSA layouts and vice-versa should you need that. It's good to compare one to the other depending upon what your Pro Shop uses.

Hope this helps...

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#198839 - 01/09/18 10:49 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9763
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Question: Does a Dual Angle Drill work on a Symmetrical Core ball where the PSA is not marked?
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#198840 - 01/09/18 01:54 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 659
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Technically speaking, if you draw a line from the pin to the CG on a symmetrical core ball and continue that line for 6-3/4 more inches, that's the MB. Since the MB is always in the same location for all symmetrical core balls, it doesn't need to be marked.

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