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#198781 - 12/28/17 07:20 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
goobee Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 543
A/S/L: 58/M/Sunny California
Nothing in decent quality. I'll have someone record me this Saturday during league with a better resolution.
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Legend

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#198795 - 12/30/17 06:25 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 618
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Go to this URL for a basic video explaining 'Dual Angles';

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0jVqFfnf2o

This video doesn't explain why dual angle was developed, so I will. The USBC did a ball motion study that explains why modern ball react the way they do. The study shows a bowling ball goes through 3 phases. A skid phase, a hook phase and a roll phase.

Dual Angle drilling allows the driller to control each of the 3 phases. This is accomplished by controlling the orientation of the weight block based on the release of the bowler. This is why knowing your positive axis point (PAP) is so important. Your PAP determines the initial orientation of the weight block at the point of release.

If you watch the pros on TV, male or female, you'll see they all have ball reps who make sure their balls are all drilled to get the perfect reaction based on the oil pattern they compete on. In your case, the oil pattern at the house(s) you bowl will be what you want to drill for.

Controlling the 3 phases of ball reaction controls the length of each phase based on the oil pattern.

If your ball skids too little or too far, hooks too little or too much or rolls too soon or too late, when it hits the pocket you run the risk of losing the hit.

Dual angles give you the ability to control all of these based on your ball speed, RPM's, axis rotation and axis tilt.

If your PSO doesn't know any of this, then they won't be able to drill 'your' ball based on 'your' release.

I have friends that have balls that fit my hand, but because our PAP's, speed, RPM's, axis tilt and axis rotation are different, The same ball will react completely different.

Knowing your PAP and having your balls drilled based on that PAP is the single most important aspect of drilling a new ball.

Your video will allow everyone who wants to get involved, to see how you deliver the ball. Many of the release factors can then be estimated and then the discussion can turn to controlling the 3 phases of your ball motion to get the optimum result at the pins.

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#198796 - 12/30/17 06:38 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: 82Boat69]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 618
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Here's another good youtube video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxoDM9B2Jyk

It explains how everything you need to know starts with finding your PAP and determining the other factors of your release from that PAP.

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#198798 - 12/30/17 08:12 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: 82Boat69]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1136
A/S/L: 61/M /Georgia
Originally Posted By: 82Boat69

I'd post a good explanation, but most websites are banned by bowling community and don't show up correctly. You can find them easily on the internet.
Goobee if you have Pinterest here are the links From BC forum WIKI
DUAL ANGLE LAYOUT TECHNIQUE
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/485966616024084068/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/485966616024084208/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/485966616024084101/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/485966616024084267/

I have close to 1000 pins on Pinterest that are links to bowling articles, information, and reviews. Link is below
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https://www.pinterest.com/bosstull/

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#198809 - 12/30/17 10:06 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
goobee Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 543
A/S/L: 58/M/Sunny California
Good stuff guys. So if I'm understanding this correctly, I may need a wider first angle x shorter than 3 3/8th PAP to Pin distance x wider second angle (farther down lane, less flare, delayed reaction).

I spoke with the driller yesterday and made an appointment for next Tuesday. He sounds pretty thorough in what he's going to do. He'll spend some time with me on the lanes, determine my speed, tilt, rev rate and PAP. After that, we'll discuss what I'm looking for. That's a heck of a lot more than what other drillers have done for me. They take my measurements and drill out basic layouts (weaker, stronger, longer, etc.)


Edited by goobee (12/30/17 10:10 PM)
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#198810 - 12/31/17 04:31 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
82Boat69 Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 618
A/S/L: 70/M/California
Since we don't have any accurate values for you and don't know the THS you bowl on, what I can do is tell you what I use and why, with a ball similar to the ball you have.

The shot where I bowl is 40' long and the oil is deepest from 10 to 10. There's still some at 7 and very little outside 7. That means any shot thrown right will recover but at a cost to RPM's.

My ball speed is between 16-17 out of my hand but only about 13.5 at the cameras. I get between 315-325 RPM's. My axis tilt is about 10 degrees and my axis rotation is from 30 to 45 degrees based on what I did at the release.

I have 2 balls that are similar to the Radical Attack Pearl based on surface. One is a Storm Hy-Road and the other is an Ebonite Cyclone.

The radical attack has a surface of 179 on a scale of 0 to 300. A Hy-Road is 173 and a Cyclone is 167.

I have a very long PAP, 6 over and down 3/16. That means I get a lot of ball on the lane on each revolution. Using wide drilling angles will only allow your ball to skid longer if you have good speed. Otherwise, your ball will react off the pattern based on its surface.

Using 3-3/8" for a pin-to PAP will give you maximum flare 'potential' but at a cost to RPM's and speed. Flare, put simply, puts more surface on the lane on each revolution. Unless you have at least 300 RPM's, 3-3/8 will more than likely roll out unless you have lots of oil on the lane. I've experimented with 3-3/8 and can only use it on a ball like a Tropical Breeze. I pretty much use 5 inches on everything I'm throwing now.

With only 16 MPH out of hand, drilling angles beyond 50 degrees will skid too far for me. Even if my ball recovers, its entry angle will be too wide and I'll leave soft 10's. For your first drilling, unless you have lots of rev's, I'd stay around 50 degrees.

The VAL angle can be misunderstood. The more acute the angle, the sharper hook 'potentially'. Only if you have lots of hand will this be true. If you go with a 3-3/8 pin to PAP and then have a narrow VAL angle, like 30 degrees, unless you're over 300 RPM's your ball will roll out.

I would recommend a very vanilla dual angle combination for your first attempt. I recommend 50 x 5 x 50. After bowling with this combination for awhile, you'll know what angles you can/cannot use.

Start keeping personal records of every ball you own and what Dual Angle combination you used. Over time you will learn what works for you and what doesn't. Once you know your PAP, you can go back and calculate the dual angles for all the balls you currently own.

Try to avoid balls that are outside your comfort zone. If you buy a ball that's too aggressive for your delivery/release, you'll simply waste your money re-drilling to take all that aggression away later. Start in the middle and work your way up, only drill high end balls when you 'KNOW' what works and what doesn't work.

It will cost a few dollars up-front to find your dual angle sweet-spot, but it will save you a fortune down the road.

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#198812 - 12/31/17 05:37 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
Fin09 Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 1159
A/S/L: 51/M/Virginia Beach, VA
The information you can find online about the subject is a good start. Kind of like self-diagnosing with webmd. If your PSO has been to a class MO Pinel has taught, and fully grasps it, he or she can dial in an even more precise reaction. Sport patterns will need a much more specific layout than most house conditions. There's usually enough room for error in leagues that layouts are further down the list of what's most important.
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#198814 - 01/01/18 02:30 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
goobee Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 543
A/S/L: 58/M/Sunny California
Let's see how it goes. I'll study up some more and give an update after the session with him.
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Secondary

15lbs Brunswick BTU Pearl
15lbs Motiv Venom Panic
15lbs Motiv Rebel Tank

Spare

15lbs Faball Nail

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#198818 - 01/02/18 12:01 PM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1378
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
just a quick note - dual angle drilling has been around well before the USBC Ball Motion Study, which was in 2005-6. There has been mention of dual angle drilling from 2000 and prior.

Back to the discussion. smile
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#198819 - 01/03/18 12:59 AM Re: Dual Angle Layouts [Re: goobee]
goobee Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 543
A/S/L: 58/M/Sunny California
I spent some time this afternoon with the new driller, I'm pretty impressed with the experience so far. I thought he was just going to watch me bowl but he was interactive, and had me do different things to see how the ball would respond.

He had two major findings:

1. I was clinching up on the ball due to too much reverse thumb and finger pitch.
2. I was muscling the ball on the front/back swing.

He had some other observations that were based upon my "classic" style I leaned in the 80's.

He agreed that standing 30 and throwing out to 10 was not a good line for me as my balls simply burn up by the time they get to the pocket. He suggested that I reduce my loft and release the ball closer to the foul line without the "reaching for the sky" motion I do now (part of my classic release) and stay behind the ball rather that come up on the side (part of my "lawnmower start" release motion).

Specs: (these are based upon my old balls and subject to change with the new layouts)

High Track
Low Tilt (8 degrees)
PAP: 5-7/8, 1-1/16 up
Tweener rev rate

Layout: 65x3-3/8x35
Pin above and to the right of my ring finger



Rationale for layout: He believes instead of me trying to make the ball move (throw back from my classic days in the 80's where you had to help the ball move) I should let the ball work.

He redid my thumb and finger pitches to what he felt were their "natural" positions. This should reduce/eliminate my clinching up. He also gave me some tips on how to stop muscling the ball.

Confirming what you guys side, he indicated that it would probably take a few tries to get the idea layout for me.
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14lbs Ebonite Gamebreaker 2
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Secondary

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