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#197998 - 08/11/17 10:48 AM Other sports that use a ball
W9JAB Offline
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Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 266
A/S/L: 66/m/Il.
I was watching the latest Junior Gold Championship, and seeing some really good young bowlers doing very well.
I saw Parker Bohn's kid bowl. And it got me thinking, how the sport has changed so much since his father's day.(not that his day has passed)

Now I,m not getting on the old band wagon about new balls or oil,or wood V.S. plastic lanes.

BUT, the more I thought about it I can't come up with any outer
sport (activity) that every one dose not use the same ball.

I'm not a golfer so maybe you can all use a different kinds of balls, but it seems to me that bowling has gotten to a point were the ball technology is the dominating factor rather then skill.

Oh sure you still need to toss a decent shot, I prove that twice a week.

But still to see kids under 12 hooking the entire lane?
And ball reps swarming around like flies?
Tells me that the ball tech. may be playing too much a roll in the game.

And what about the PBA and USBC, are they in the pockets of the manufactures?

Were dose it end, we are now seeing computer placed in finger holes to record ball motion, when do you buy a "programmable" ball? Just program in your speed, hook, tilt, and surface, set it down let it go and watch a strike, then call it bowling? seeingstars
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#198000 - 08/11/17 12:26 PM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: W9JAB]
mmalsed Offline
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Registered: 10/18/10
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The NFL (and college and HS) football has changed MASSIVELY over the years. It's been fairly stable recently, but it started as a pretty shapeless mass, then moved to something a rugby player would recognize, then as passing became accepted (which it was totally not for a long time) it started to migrate to its ovoid shape. Then with the AFL of the 70s being SO pass heavy (since it's exciting and flashy) and they used a slightly smaller and far pointier ball with bigger laces, when the AFL and NFL merged, that ball further influenced the NFL's ball. Then as things evolve further, weather proofing, slightly different lacing, etc. the ball has changed slightly over the past 20 years, but it's changed DRAMATICALLY since its inception. Then look at weights and pressures. . . smile

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#198001 - 08/11/17 12:55 PM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: W9JAB]
Mkirchie Offline
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Registered: 01/14/07
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Originally Posted By: W9JAB
but it seems to me that bowling has gotten to a point were the ball technology is the dominating factor rather then skill.

I sure know it seems like this, however I still don't feel it is 100 % true since the access to the technology is pretty much equal. Then the more skill a bowler has, the more they can take advantage of technology. The pros take advantage of the technology way more than any amateur will because they are way more consistent with pretty much everything about ball motion at release and are more knowledgeable. If you gave an equal arsenal of balls to Tommy Jones and a 220 avg. house bowler, I would put my money on Jones winning on any pattern. Giving the same equipment to the 220 avg. house bowler does not make up the skill difference.

Originally Posted By: W9JAB
But still to see kids under 12 hooking the entire lane?
And ball reps swarming around like flies?

I watched the same U12 clip on youtube that you watched with Bohn's son. Bohn's son generates a ton of power from his form, probably more than his father ever did even when he was young. Rylan, the other bowler is an 11 year old two hander who based on analyzing the first 15 feet of his first shot in slow motion has a ball speed at release around 16.5 mph and around 340-380 rpm's. Those numbers are crazy for his age and are the result of what he does at release, not the result of ball technology. I think that the technology has promoted the need to generate more power than before, but the technology cannot generate that power on its own. However, I will add that I am not a big fan of the influence of the ball reps at events and I would like to see that change.

I'm not sure if comparing a bowling ball to other balls in sports is a good comparison solely because of the individual nature of the ball to a bowler compared to other balls being used in the majority of other sports where two or more people interact with the same ball. Also, the rules of how you bowl (not league rules, average rules, equipment rules, etc) have stayed relatively static while other sports adjust rules related to game play on a frequent basis (I'm looking at you, NHL).

Mark
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#198002 - 08/11/17 01:56 PM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: Mkirchie]
82Boat69 Offline
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Registered: 06/24/16
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I think USBC finds itself in the same position as gun-control advocates. Even if USBC wanted to control the new balls being made, they can't outlaw all the balls already out in the field.

Maybe the real question is, who are we really talking about? What percentage of bowlers can actually make use of the new balls?

I would speculate that 95% or even more don't have a clue about the potential of their equipment. On this forum, we may spend too much time on the 5% and not the other 95% :-)

How many scratch leagues are there versus mixed handicapped? Does anyone know what percentage of high-end balls do manufacturers make versus how many low-end balls?

If high-tech balls are a problem, for what percentage of bowlers are they a problem for?
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#198004 - 08/12/17 07:59 AM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: W9JAB]
BOSStull Offline
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Registered: 10/15/11
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Not necessarily change in ball technology in other sports but what contacts the ball.

Take baseball or softball from wood bats to high tech bats. Every year new bats. I use to play softball and bought Worth PowerCells. The softball had a trampoline affect. Balls jumped off so much certain models were outlawed by USSSA. Mine of course. And you talk about bowling ball cracking. These high tech bats were constantly denting and cracking. Sofbtall Ball technology to combat HiTech bats created restricted flight softballs.

Golf clubs what a difference between my first set of Spalding clubs and my Callaway Big Bertha Clubs. I stopped there with these clubs although there are new and improved versions could not justify price of another set for how little I play. Anyone use a Bandit golf ball?

Tennis rackets also new and improved. When I played tennis way back had just a wooden racket.
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#198006 - 08/12/17 10:15 AM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: W9JAB]
W9JAB Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 266
A/S/L: 66/m/Il.
Missing the point seeingstars

It's not that balls have changed but, everyone in bowling uses a different kind, where in other ball sports, the ball is the "official", same, one/kind.

So if we are to compare skill from one bowler to another the ball variable needs to be taken out of the mix.

Like the Mark Roth plastic ball torment a few years back.
Everyone has the same ball, and skill level is the game, not ball technology.
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#198007 - 08/12/17 11:19 AM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: W9JAB]
Mkirchie Offline
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Registered: 01/14/07
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Originally Posted By: W9JAB
It's not that balls have changed but, everyone in bowling uses a different kind, where in other ball sports, the ball is the "official", same, one/kind.

I still don't see an appropriate comparison between uniform balls used in team sports or direct 1 vs. 1 competition sports such as tennis as it is impossible for a player to change to a ball of their liking in the middle of play. A pitcher cannot pitch a ball they like and then have the ball change in mid-pitch to a ball the batter would prefer. That doesn't mean that bowling is flawed in the regard that a bowler can choose which ball they feels works best, and sometimes they make the wrong choice.

Originally Posted By: W9JAB
So if we are to compare skill from one bowler to another the ball variable needs to be taken out of the mix.

I'm pretty sure that this comparison can still be made regardless of the equipment being used. The technology does not make a 180 ave. house bowler look like a pro. I don't compare the pros to each other in terms of skill because I know they all have around the same ridiculous skill regardless of what they use to score on the conditions they are dealt.

Originally Posted By: W9JAB
Like the Mark Roth plastic ball torment a few years back.
Everyone has the same ball, and skill level is the game, not ball technology.

I believe that the top end balls that the pros use are not that different from each other even across different companies. Nothing has changed so drastically that a pro can use a ball that gives them a substantial advantage over another pro.

In general, I just respectfully differ in opinion that technology has become more important than skill in bowling. If technology has really overridden skill, high average typical house shot bowlers would not have problems with tough patterns that the very skilled pros can dominate.

Mark
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#198008 - 08/12/17 02:09 PM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: Mkirchie]
W9JAB Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 266
A/S/L: 66/m/Il.

In general, I just respectfully differ in opinion that technology has become more important than skill in bowling.
I think it has enhanced scoring, I'm old enough to remember a 300 game a big deal, now much more common place. And bowler averages much higher then when I was a kid in the 50's.

If technology has really overridden skill, high average typical house shot bowlers would not have problems with tough patterns that the very skilled pros can dominate.
The lane dressing has become an technological break-thru in it's self compared to a bug sprayer and mop, it's more like an ink jet printer. This gives a whole new wrinkle to the game, but it's the same for everyone on the lane.

Once again I do not contend that it's only the ball that makes the bowler, But I do question the legitimacy of everyone using a different ball in competition.

Just look at what it has become, You need to limit the amount of balls each player can bring to the game. I remember when NO one had a ball just for spares. This is great for manufactures that now can look forward to selling you five balls when the standard was one, and pity the bowler who brought the wrong ball to the match.

Maybe we could see a match just for asymmetric resin, and one for say symmetrical urethane, with all the cones the same, just a thought.

JOE
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#198009 - 08/12/17 05:02 PM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: W9JAB]
Mkirchie Offline
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Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 709
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While I will agree that the balls are a major factor in the scores that are currently being shot, I don't want to discount the advancement in the physical ability of a bowler. I do feel that there is a tendency in the history of bowling to nearly totally ignore the increased physical skills of bowlers over time and focus so much on equipment. We know so much more about how to take advantage of body mechanics to create leverage and repeatability. The power release of Roth in the 70's has been replaced by higher rev releases that look a lot more effortless.

Although oil might be put down the same, there is no guarantee that any two lanes will play the same for multiple reasons. If I'm bowling and my pair is playing different than the pair next to me, why shouldn't I be able to choose my ball that works best for that pair? In a world of only one ball, if that one ball worked better on one pair than another, then the lane conditions play too much of a factor in scoring. I'd personally rather see a bowler's ball choice also factor into scoring instead of just the luck of landing on the pair with the best conditions for that one ball everyone must use.

I think in an ideal world where all lanes really do play the same, I say give the same ball idea a try. However I am curious to know if surfaces can be sanded or polished? Do they all have to be the same drilling for each bowler? Can bowlers have two or more of the same ball drilled differently? Do bowlers have the option of what weight to choose? That makes a difference in RG and differential even with the same core. Are they all going to be pancake blocks instead? In the land of the ridiculous, can I soak my ball in MEK or other softening chemicals? Or even more silly, can I add metallic weights to the ball? Based on history, I do believe that in such a scenario of uniform equipment bowlers will try ideas with their equipment that lack integrity to gain an advantage.

Mark
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#198011 - 08/12/17 10:45 PM Re: Other sports that use a ball [Re: W9JAB]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9584
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Ok, so last year the house changed the shot for the Men's Monday night league. 4 years ago, when I had my last 300 in that league, there were 30 in the same house, and a handful of 800's. After the shot was changed, only 3, 300's all of last year.

The lane conditions certainly affected the outcome. But, the strange thing was, the league average went up.

Now, the shot was changed again. I rolled 300 last tuesday. We shall see. It's not that its easier now, or back then. The shot was a Brunswick recommended pattern, professed by Mo Pinel. It had more oil early and less later, total volume was lower and the XMas tree was very narrow, and not buffed, as the Brunswick machine doesn't do that. Theory was to get more slide, which Mo professes. His 9 degree entry angle left corner pins all night. And, more 7-10's then I care to remember.


Edited by Dennis Michael (08/12/17 10:47 PM)
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