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#197587 - 05/31/17 09:20 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9549
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Nord, is your wrister on the wrong hand, or do you have a problem?

BTW, I've always seen over/under with asymmetrical balls. Not as much with symmetrical.

In fact, I used to claim, Storm invented the term.

To me, a high Diff in a ball, just tells me the ball acts erratically. It's the difference between the high and low of the measured RG by the Throwbot. And, if the Throwbot is always the same, then it's the ball that acts so differently.

Just my thought.
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#197588 - 05/31/17 09:32 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9549
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I also notice your lanes have the Range Finder marks down lane. The far outside right one is 45' away and at the 10 board. My breakpoint target is outside of that mark, at the 8 board, standing at 30. Since, I focus there, I really don't see where my ball hits at the arrows. Prob 13-14.

But, if I hit the 8 board, 45' away, I have a good chance at a strike. It means my symmetrical core ball moves 9 boards the final 15'.
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#197600 - 05/31/17 04:20 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: Dennis Michael]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Nord, is your wrister on the wrong hand, or do you have a problem?

BTW, I've always seen over/under with asymmetrical balls. Not as much with symmetrical.

In fact, I used to claim, Storm invented the term.

To me, a high Diff in a ball, just tells me the ball acts erratically. It's the difference between the high and low of the measured RG by the Throwbot. And, if the Throwbot is always the same, then it's the ball that acts so differently.

Just my thought.

I used to have bad carple tunnel in my left wrist so when I held the ball it hurt, so I got a left hand bowling brace and it helped. I am ok now so I don't use it anyomre.

As to Asymmetrics, I am starting to agree with you are saying. Last night at Kearny was a kind of revelation.
The Dark Legend was all over the place and I could not trust it. Then I pull out the Rack Attack, which has a high RG and tiny diff and has a low flare layout
with a simple lightbulb core and I could just set the ball in the pocket every time with no fear the ball would move off its line.

It suddenly was easy to bowl. Weird...

Our teamate, who is a 215 avg bowler at Parkway is only 194 at Kearny using the same Code Black.
At Parkway they have a ton of oil and the code Black is predictable, but at Kearny the Code Black was super over under.
I don't think he can use an Asymmetric at Kearny and I may not be able to either.
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#197605 - 06/01/17 12:18 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9549
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Nord, to me, it's simple. A symmetrical core gives you a smoother transition on the lane, a controllable ball path, and not as snappy on the back end. It does hook, but in an arc, not the hockey stick.

It's just so much easier for me with my slower speed now.
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#197606 - 06/01/17 12:32 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: Dennis Michael]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Nord, to me, it's simple. A symmetrical core gives you a smoother transition on the lane, a controllable ball path, and not as snappy on the back end. It does hook, but in an arc, not the hockey stick.

It's just so much easier for me with my slower speed now.

I guess I am learning this now through having two completely polar opposite balls with two completely opposite layouts and using them both in league.

The Asymmetric Dark Legend is very snappy, but if there is enough oil, then I can get it down the lane and the snap is controllable. If it dries up then over under starts.
The Dark Legend has a high flare layout on it and it has a super low RG and super high Diff.

The Symmetric Rack Attack will go perfectly straight, turn over and roll straight into the pocket with very little if any right to left.
It has a low flare layout and the RG is high and the Diff very low.

The videos I posted show the difference in how they react and it is a big difference!

I think I will try the Rack Attack Monday at Parkway and see how it does. I normally only use my Dark Legend there.
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#197623 - 06/07/17 01:36 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be thrown hard! [Re: nord]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA

So I learned a lesson that confirms what the title of this post stated:

"Reactive Balls are designed to be thrown hard!"

This Monday at Parkway I tried both my Dark Legend and Rack Attack and they would not grip the lane.
They just rotated slowly down the lane and resulted in disaster for two straight games.
I had 6 light hit splits in game 1 and game 2 for both games 40 pins under average.

In game three I went to my Crow and it rolled up and let me meet my average.

Then tonight at Kearny, a day later, same thing for game 1 and 2. Same balls at 1000 grit would not grip the lane. They just rotated slowly and caused light hit splits and washouts.
Again 30 and 40 pins under average for first two games.

In game three I decided to try something that doesn't seem to make sense since the balls were not gripping, but actually was a proof of what I have been saying from the start.

I picked up the Dark Legend and rushed the line and put much more speed on it. No easing softly into the lane like I normally do.

The result? The Legend came alive! It spun up and when it hit the back end it leaped at the pocket and carried hard. I finished the game with 7 strikes!

I am convinced. These balls want to be hit hard at the bottom and need to be, to get them to do anything. If I ease them into the lane they are weak as kittens and simply will not roll or transition.
If I throw them hard, the balls come off my fingers with more whip and they rev up and move like crazy and strike hard.

For my game, because I have side roll, if I ease the ball into the lane, then the skid phase becomes far too long. But if I throw hard, then the ball revs more and jumps off the spot.

This is on normal high volume house shots.

This approach for me is so different than at Poway, where I can ease the ball up the lane and it will grab strongly and roll hard because the lanes have so much built in friction.

So there you have it. From now on I am going to increase my speed of release so the reactive engines will rev up and make the torque needed to jump them off the spot.
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High Series: 621
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#197624 - 06/07/17 07:50 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be thrown hard! [Re: nord]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9549
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
NORD, seems to me, when you roll it slower, or at your normal speed, the ball comes off your hand with the thumb and fingers at the same time, resulting in less friction. But, when you pull your hand thru at release, your ball has more rotation caused by your fingers.

To me, it's more your release then the speed.
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Legends - L/M New Terminator 15#
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#197627 - 06/07/17 11:25 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be thrown hard! [Re: Dennis Michael]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
NORD, seems to me, when you roll it slower, or at your normal speed, the ball comes off your hand with the thumb and fingers at the same time, resulting in less friction. But, when you pull your hand thru at release, your ball has more rotation caused by your fingers.
To me, it's more your release then the speed.
I think you are mostly right. When I throw it faster the ball comes off with a faster rotation and it causes the core to rev up and the science of the ball kicks in.
When I relax and ease the ball into the lane then the rotation is less and on these high volume house shots the reactive ball just floats down the lane like a spare ball.

Also throwing faster not only causes more rotation, but the extra speed causes the reaction to be more aggressive.
At Poway, because the lanes have so much friction, I got used to using a shiny rubber ball and easing it into the lane and it would read the whole lane and roll up nicely.
But on these other house shots, even a reactive ball will not grip when I ease it.

Maybe if I had a fingertip grip I would get more fingers even at slower speeds and that would make the difference. Then the thumb would always come out first.

These videos show the dramatic difference I am talking about.

Easing the rubber ball at Poway produces great results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcPMbu90NVk

Throwing hard and fast with Dark Legend needed on normal house shots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxKolNzegdo&t=51s
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
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#197630 - 06/07/17 04:13 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be thrown hard! [Re: nord]
82Boat69 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 499
A/S/L: 69/M/California
There are a number of ball speed/rev-rate charts that show rev-rate increasing with speed. Although, not many show what happens for slower speeds. Still even for slower speeds, more is better. Simply put, more speed and more RPM's coming off the oil pattern makes everything else pale in comparison.

Bowlers love to talk about specific balls and because we're all different, ball companies make sure we all have one to coo over.

However, anyone who watches a few hundred ball reaction videos, sees the truth. Brands and models have nothing to do with it. It's all speed/RPM no matter what a person throws.

So, how a person generates more speed and more RPM's should be more important than whatever ball they buy or whatever small variations may exist between the internal numbers of un-drilled balls.

For my 2 cents, a relaxed arm-swing with a relaxed wrist will produce more speed and more RPM's with the least amount of effort, regardless of ball height at the push-away or at the top of the back-swing.
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#197631 - 06/08/17 09:05 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be thrown hard! [Re: 82Boat69]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9549
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Originally Posted By: 82Boat69


For my 2 cents, a relaxed arm-swing with a relaxed wrist will produce more speed and more RPM's with the least amount of effort, regardless of ball height at the push-away or at the top of the back-swing.


On this, we agree. I'll add a full extension of the arm, as well.
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Legends - L/M New Terminator 15#
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




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