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#197450 - 05/10/17 04:40 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: champ]
nord Online   content
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Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 713
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA

In order to demonstrate what is going on with me at Parkway and on other modern lane conditions when I try to use reactive, and,
to try and show how reactive is actually much weaker on these conditions than urethane, tonight I went to parkway and made a video showing the difference I am seeing.

The reactive ball and the urethane ball are both strong balls with symmetric cores.

The reactive ball is the Marvel S at stock grit of 3000.
The Marvel S as you know is especially strong as it uses the NRG cover stock made famous by the Virtual Gravity Nano.

The urethane ball is The Crow at stock grit of 500. It has a special very strong modern urethane cover stock.

Both balls have the same drilling layout.
Both balls weigh 14lbs.
I am bowling on the same lane during the same session.
I am standing on the same starting point and rolling up the same identical line for each shot.
If I miss with the Marvel S then I will duplicate that same miss with the Crow.

This is a normal house shot with pretty good volume.
I bowl in league here and see this problem of the reactive ball having no grab while a urethane ball is almost too strong.

How can this be???

I have tried all my reactive balls at Parkway and tried them at a variety of grits and their reaction is either much too weak, or they become unpredictable, sometimes reacting and sometimes not.

With strong urethane at least the reaction is very predictable.
If I keep the ball in the oil and close my angles down and go direct at the pocket then I am fine.
If I miss right then the ball will cross over, if I miss inside it will hold and likely leave the 10 pin.
Very simple.

If I do the same with reactive then there is no consistent reaction.
It does whatever it wants and it makes it super hard to adjust since each shot does some other weird and unpredictable thing.
At least with my style it does.

Here is the comparision video, your thoughts and comments are very welcome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQeTjBc5hQ0&feature=youtu.be
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High Series: 630
Composite Avg: 175

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#197451 - 05/10/17 07:33 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
82Boat69 Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 514
A/S/L: 69/M/California
If I might add my 2 cents, the condition where you bowl is probably the least of your worries.

Only 2 factors really matter, ball speed and RPM's coming off the oil pattern. Anything you do that reduces ball speed or reduces RPM's will make your ball perform poorly.

Under careful observation, your balls all react about the same. The difference is how 'quickly' they react.

Reactive resin reacts very quickly and then rolls out. Lesser technology balls, react roughly the same, they just take longer to do it.

To our eyes, the latter seems to be reacting more. It's not true. In your case, your reactive balls might only take 2-3 feet to complete their ball motion before they begin to roll. Your urethane or rubber balls may take 10-12 feet to complete the same motion.

Your slow ball speed is what's causing you to 'incorrectly' believe the lane condition forces you to use something besides reactive resin.

In a world where ball speed and RPM's are king, your delivery reduces both to a point of non-existence. With your thumb at 9 and fingers at 3, they will all exit the ball almost simultaneously, which limits RPM's. Combine your weak release with no ball speed and your results at the pins will be less than desired.

Here's a quick way to fix both;

First, discontinue using the 'Samsonite' hand position. Rotate your whole arm and hand 90 degrees clockwise like you were going to throw a softball underhand. To verify, your thumb should be pointing about 2 o'clock and your elbow should be tucked in next to your body. The inside of your forearm should be pointing at your target.

Secondly, add just a little athleticism to your arm-swing. That is, as your arm swing get's to the bottom, accelerate your arm so that the impetus you put into it at the bottom will cause your follow through to end up head-high or above.

I'm confident, if your ball speed increases, you'll find reactive reacts more than anything else you own.

What you are attempting to do is control skid, hook and roll. The farther down-lane you can do this, the more angle into the pocket, the more strikes you will carry.

Don't be surprised if you begin to thump over your thumb or become a 3/4 roller. Proper hand position during your release may cause both for awhile.

Your grip is placed on your ball to position it correctly in relationship to the your axis and the core of the ball. The offset in the length your finger holes in relation to your thumb and the pitch in your fingers and thumbs are designed to help you release a ball correctly. If you don't release your ball correctly, using a 'Samsonite' position for example, all the specifics of your grip and it's relation to your axis and core are lost. You won't have any axis tilt, your axis rotation will be 90 degrees which is bad for slow ball speed, and your ball's motion will be hard to control shot to shot.
_________________________
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14 lb Ebonite Cyclone : 50 x 5 x 50 Polished
15 lb Columbia Blue Dot: Circa 1978

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#197452 - 05/10/17 10:47 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: 82Boat69]
W9JAB Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 266
A/S/L: 66/m/Il.
Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

Nord, please read carefully, I do like your easy/simple game, in fact I did try to copy it, as I had been using the suitcase release with some success.

So I had my new Code Black drilled up for a full roller with all the tricks to make it a big hook ball, even went to a conventional finger drilling rather than finger tip.

Now I try my new "hook monster" and find out it's a disaster, that ball went straight as an arrow no matter what I did it would not hook, curve or budge from a straight line, I also tried different surfaces from polished to 500 grit.

As I didn't need a $200 spare ball, I had it plugged and re-drilled
finger tip, pin left of ring finger and balance hole.
I experimented with still using a suitcase release and it did hook,

BUT (big But)it hit with no power at the pins.
After much trial and error I now use a conventional 3/4 release with some rev. and about 11-12mph with good results.

So my point is I know your Idle/hero is Hardwick, if you insist on not changing style,(and you seem to what to stay on the second arrow) the only thing you can do is to experiment with speed and surface.

One last thought,
Hardwick joined the PBA Tour in 1961, Hardwick captured the PBA career "Triple Crown" 1963 and 1969.
A lot has changed since then, the ball and lane are total different, the casual bowler (a few times a year) this would not be apparent but for the League bowler it's two different worlds.


Edited by W9JAB (05/10/17 10:48 AM)
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#197453 - 05/10/17 02:58 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: W9JAB]
nord Online   content
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 713
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA

So if I hear what you are saying correctly, I basically roll the weakest, wimpiest ball in the history of bowling and no matter what super high tech ball I use, or what lane I play on, it is always going to be a fail.

The only hope I have is to throw my game away and get a brand new game and start bowling the way everyone else bowls, which is a semi-roller with fingertip ball.

But all I can say is, when I hold the ball with thumb at 12 o'clock and thumb at 6 o'clock, I get a lot of pain in my elbow and arm in short order from squeezing to hold the ball, plus my wrist breaks back too and it hurts the middle of the back of my hand from my fingers being pulled back by the ball as my hand comes forward.

I have tried this release and it is far too painful. That is why I went to suitcase, because the ball just holds there with little squeezing pressure.
The Samsonite grip after all, allows one to hold a lot of weight with little strain, that is why it is on suitcases.

If I was to make such a change I would need some real authorized, approved coach and drilling master to do a flawless fit or else I will definitely hurt myself.

Billy Hardwick did not release the ball with a suitcase grip, he came through the ball with thumb at 11 o'clock and fingers at 5 o'clock.
I have tried this release and it hurts me, at least with a conventional grip it does.
Also the ball rolls so early it dies immediately unless there is a ton of oil or the ball is pretty weak.

Here is a video showing a comparison between the straighter release and the suitcase release. Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX7WOxSJ8-g
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630
Composite Avg: 175

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#197454 - 05/10/17 03:42 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
82Boat69 Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 514
A/S/L: 69/M/California
I'm sorry if that's what it sounded like I was saying. That wasn't my intention.

I tried to explain that the ball motion you 'see' is not the result of lane conditions, but is the same for all your equipment. What makes one look like it moves more than the other is how long it takes for that movement to take place. Reactive, very quick. Urethane/rubber, very slow.

Additionally, anything that reduces your ball speed or RPM's will reduce your ability to carry strikes.

I wasn't aware you incurred pain. Have you had your elbow examined and can you share the diagnosis?

As for your hand, a number of gloves can relieve any discomfort you might encounter delivering a ball from behind instead off the side. The right glove will keep your wrist straight and keep your fingers from breaking backward.

So, all we're left with is the pain in your elbow caused by rotating your hand, wrist and forearm to the right. Only a Dr. can tell you why. If you share that with us, we might be able to find a solution for that too.

My intention is to help you score as high as possible by using your strengths and removing your weaknesses. Not by tossing your whole delivery.

Believe it or not, a relaxed delivery is preferred. Even a broken wrist can be useful. Unfortunately, if your thumb and fingers come out too close together, it really limits what is possible. First, you can't create RPM's and you can't project your ball down lane creating more speed.

Tell us more about your elbow.
_________________________
15 lb Storm Hy-Road : 65 x 3-3/8 x 25 500/1000 Grit
15 lb Storm Hy-Road : 50 x 5 x 50 Polished
14 lb Ebonite Cyclone : 50 x 5 x 50 Polished
15 lb Columbia Blue Dot: Circa 1978

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#197455 - 05/10/17 04:49 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: 82Boat69]
nord Online   content
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 713
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: 82Boat69

Tell us more about your elbow.


I played competitive tennis and once the graphite racket era came in I used these rackets which gave me amazing power over wood, but the vibration damaged the tendons in my elbow and upper forearm.
Now the slightest vibration, if it continues for a few minutes, will cause them to start hurting. There is not cure and it has been like this for over 20 years. But the other side effect is, if I squeeze repetitively then they inflame and hurt like hell. Tendonitis.

The Samsonite grip allows the ball to just hook into my hand like a junkyard claw. I have tons of forward pitch in fingers and thumb.
11/16 forward on thumb and 1/2 forward on fingers.

Now I can use up to 15 pounds for 6 games a week in league as long as there is a couple of days between leagues for recovery.

With my current grip I am able to bowl again and have some fun.
But as I get better I want to get better. You know what I am talking about.

It is kinda cool to do something in a way that is different from others. To be a throwback. I am very accurate with my technique.
At Poway my rubber ball leaves a black stripe on the lane and after three games you will see a single black stripe about 2 inches wide over my strike target.
I am staying within that area all night.
And as I said, at Poway my rubber ball kills it since those lanes are real dry.
But when I go to normal house shots, they are so wet I have tons of trouble getting the ball to read the lane and if I take surface down too far I get bad over/under or rapid rollout.

If I have to change to Semi-Roller to improve my game, I have to do it in a way that is correct that will not cause pain.

I think I have good form and balance with good hand to eye coordination.
I have been averaging in the 190's with rubber at Poway with getting very few strikes and 175 at the other normal houses getting only a couple of strikes per game. I mostly build scores from spares.

So if I could add three strikes more per game I would be dangerous!
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630
Composite Avg: 175

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#197457 - 05/10/17 06:12 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
goobee Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 523
A/S/L: 58/M/Sunny California
I have an arthritic wrist and need a substantial support device to bowl. I use the Storm Gizmo which prevents your hand from moving sideways and also prevents your fingers from bending backwards. Finally it prevents your hand from bending backwards. It's a heck of a device.
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#197458 - 05/10/17 06:33 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: goobee]
nord Online   content
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 713
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA

I have the Storm gizmo and tried it and it made the back of my hand hurt a lot because all the stress went on the fingers being bent back when I came through the ball.
All that forward force was put on just two fingers and it caused very sharp jabbing pains in the back of the hand where the middle and ring finger bones are.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630
Composite Avg: 175

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#197459 - 05/10/17 06:51 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
goobee Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 523
A/S/L: 58/M/Sunny California
Interesting. With the Gizmo, I am able to get under the ball and put a decent amount of revs on it. Without it, I have to suitcase the ball or suffer extreme wrist pain.
_________________________
Primary

14lbs Ebonite Gamebreaker 2
15lbs Motiv Venom Shock
14lbs Columbia 300 Antics (Weak)
15lbs Columbia 300 Antics (Agg)

Secondary

15lbs Blend10 OSW
15lbs Motiv Venom Panic
15lbs Motiv Rebel Tank

Spare

15lbs Faball Nail

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#197460 - 05/11/17 12:22 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: goobee]
nord Online   content
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 713
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: goobee
Interesting. With the Gizmo, I am able to get under the ball and put a decent amount of revs on it. Without it, I have to suitcase the ball or suffer extreme wrist pain.


It is weird how we all have the same body parts but we are so different in actual use.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
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