BowlingFans.com, The site for the fans, by the fans....
Sponsored Links




ChatBox:

Sponsored Links


Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#197437 - 05/09/17 11:54 AM Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard!
nord Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 694
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA

Being a bowler with exceptionally slow ball speed by modern standards (12 mph off the hand), I have found that reactive balls do not react unless they are thrown within a certain threshold speed.

On a lane condition that has enough oil for me to use reactive, unless I throw the ball at least 14 mph off my hand, it will not react or have any strong backend reaction.

If I ease the reactive ball up the lane nice and slow like the way I do with my Rubber ball on the dry Poway lanes, then the reactive ball will just lope down the lane and barely try to make the turn.
But if I just throw it faster, it will get up the lane and then suddenly make a brutal move left and smash the pins.

I figured this out last night in league watching my new doubles partner bowl. He is a high average bowler and was using his Code Black.
He just put it up 10 and it would go real long like it was never going to even move, then suddenly it leaped left and killed the pins. It was odd to watch the high tech do this.
It was magical and really seemed unfair.

He told me he quit bowling about 40 years ago because he had peaked out at a 185 average using rubber on lanes of that time. But he recently tried reactive and was astonished.
He now averages 215 and that average is climbing.

His ball speed off his hand is around 18 mph.

However in my bowling career I have never experienced any benefit from using reactive balls. And I have tried maybe 20 different models over the last 6 years.
My best bowling is always done with urethane or rubber when the lanes will allow. On higher volume lanes, where I have to use reactive, I do very poorly because the reactive balls don't really react well for me.

As I walked around the bowling center last night watching all the bowlers using reactive, I saw that they all were throwing it fast and trying to put as much spin or whip on the ball as they could.
The result was all of their balls would jump at the pins and really smash them.

But this night I tried my Guru Supreme at 4000 grit and it was just a nightmare. If I missed half a board right of second arrow the ball would die instantly and never come back.
If I missed a board left of second arrow the ball would cross over. If I moved in and pushed it 13 to 10 then the ball would lope and have no punch.
But if I had thrown it a lot faster up second arrow then it probably would have got up then jumped at the pocket.
But I don't like to throw fast, it puts strain on my arm and body and it seems crazy that I have to put all this effort into getting a modern ball to do something that an ancient rubber ball will do without all that on the right conditions.

Here is a video showing my normal slow relaxed release with rubber at Poway. Rubber will carry very well for me on these conditions at this slower speed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcPMbu90NVk

And here I am using my Dark Legend solid and throwing it much faster and getting that backend reaction. But I was real sore after this session from the extra effort I had to put in to get this ball to do something:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxKolNzegdo&t=76s

So what is the answer?
Why do reactive balls require a minimum threshold speed and rotation to work?
Is this just the way they are designed to work?
Why doesn't a weaker, slower, lower rev player like myself benefit from them?
I am tired of spending money on reactive balls trying to find one that will improve my scoring.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
Kearny House Avg: 177
Parkway House Avg. 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher
Hammer Widow Spare
Billy Hardwick Rubber Ball
Columbia Scout Reactive

Top
#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links Online   content
Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
Top
#197439 - 05/09/17 12:16 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1300
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
I disagree. As I've mentioned before, I compare you and my mother-in-law, who has a similar delivery (but does not want to be video'd) and similar speed.

She throws a reactive ball, albeit a weak one, and gets a VERY strong reaction. Often too strong - we have to keep her in the oil.

THIS I have noticed - if she gets her hand forward AT ALL (which I've noticed that you do quite a bit) and gets ANY backward rotation AT ALL (that axis at 5:00, which I've seen in your videos) then the ball's balance gets mucky and it will go over/under all day long - it all depends on how the ball scrubs speed vs. grabs traction and which one will win THIS TIME.

Which is why I try to keep her hand, instead of thumb at 9:00, keep her at 10:00 or 9:30 at the most, and tell her to let the ball pull HER through rather than the other way around (which keeps her hand from coming forward.)

AS SOON as her thumb moves back to 8:00, she gets even a touch of back rotation - that axis point moves from 6:30ish, to 5:00ish - and everything goes out the window.

There's no threshold of speed, as opposed to a BALANCE of speed vs traction - it's hysteresis (love that word) and if you're slipping, you have to regain traction before you GET traction.

the farther from your "exit vector" that you're slipping, the longer it takes, the less predictable it will be, to get back within the threshold of traction.

That's just physics. We use it in rally racing - we want to get to our exit direction early, so that our tires can be pulling us in that direction and it lessens the hysteresis threshold. If we over-rotate, it takes a LOT longer (and would be "drifting" and not sliding. . .) and can be very unpredictable, especially if we catch something. . .

same thing with bowling, in principle.
_________________________
Avg: 200
Season High Gm: 276 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 714 / Lifetime: 759

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

Top
#197440 - 05/09/17 12:21 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
Jazlar Von Steich Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 102
A/S/L: 42/M/Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Pretty much everything you said is false. I see tons of people around here throwing reactive balls and getting plenty of hook - often too much hook, inside and outside.

The fact is, you are playing the wrong part of the lane for your speed/style. Your balls on outside misses are rolling out. Your misses left are over-hooking, which means you need to get in there and find the wall to the left. Once you move far enough left, you will see that you now have miss room to the left and right, assuming you are on a house pattern. If not, ball up/down as necessary. You need to change your angles and/or play a different part of the lane!

Finally, don't look for a ball to improve your scoring... that magic ball does not exist. Scoring improves by making more spares and playing the lanes properly. You are just wasting money looking for that magic ball.

Top
#197442 - 05/09/17 03:03 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: Jazlar Von Steich]
nord Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 694
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Jazlar Von Steich
Pretty much everything you said is false. I see tons of people around here throwing reactive balls and getting plenty of hook - often too much hook, inside and outside.

The fact is, you are playing the wrong part of the lane for your speed/style. Your balls on outside misses are rolling out. Your misses left are over-hooking, which means you need to get in there and find the wall to the left. Once you move far enough left, you will see that you now have miss room to the left and right, assuming you are on a house pattern. If not, ball up/down as necessary. You need to change your angles and/or play a different part of the lane!

Finally, don't look for a ball to improve your scoring... that magic ball does not exist. Scoring improves by making more spares and playing the lanes properly. You are just wasting money looking for that magic ball.


What I am saying cannot be false because I see it every night in league and especially with my new partner.
Players who use reactive and throw it 18 mph get a big, violent backend that crushes the pins. And he is not a high rev bowler. He is a stoker.
I have seen the same effect occur for me.
If I move left and keep the reactive ball in the oil, say 14 out to 11 and back nice and slow, with my normal speed, then the ball lopes and does not carry.
If I move right and wing it up second arrow, now I get a nice backend and consistent reaction. But it is a strain to throw that fast and I donít like it.
At Poway, I can move left and keep my rubber ball in the oil the whole way, nice and easy, and get great carry.
For the last 4 weeks, I have only used my rubber ball at Poway and have been averaging in the 190ís.
Then I go to Parkway bowl (normal house shot) and try to use reactive and I am bowling in the 140ís.
If I switch to my urethane ball, it is too weak for that amount of oil. But reactive is too inconsistent and sometimes will not react at all.
At Parkway, at my ball speed, with reactive or urethane, right of second arrow is forbidden, instant rollout or over hook to Brooklyn.
On, or inside second arrow is too much oil for urethane, I will leave that weak 10 all night. Last night I had a 197 clean game of spares with urethane and two 140ís with reactive.

So what is left for me?

I donít see an answer to this riddle.

The only kind of reactive ball I have never tried is a super angular pearl.
Would this allow me to ease it up the lane and still get a strong backend?
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
Kearny House Avg: 177
Parkway House Avg. 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher
Hammer Widow Spare
Billy Hardwick Rubber Ball
Columbia Scout Reactive

Top
#197444 - 05/09/17 03:21 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
W9JAB Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 263
A/S/L: 66/m/Il.
Quote:
Pretty much everything you said is false.

I think you were referring to Nord.

Quote:
Do reactive balls require a minimum threshold speed and rotation to work?

No no no speed is not necessary for the ball to react.
Case in point I can use my code black @ 11-12 mph from board 12 and put it down at the foul line 10 dot, use a suit case release, it will go straight then jump over and take out the 7 pin.
If I start on board 17 same speed use a little spin on it, and toss it out (loft) to the 10 arrow it goes to the pocket.

The point is at the same speed (slow 11-12mph) but using different releases and targets the ball will hook just fine, my LT48, will do the same thing, depending on the day may need to adjust starting point a bit.
_________________________
L/T 48
Code Black

Top
#197445 - 05/09/17 04:56 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: W9JAB]
nord Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 694
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Quote:
Do reactive balls require a minimum threshold speed and rotation to work?

Quote:
No no no speed is not necessary for the ball to react.
Case in point I can use my code black @ 11-12 mph from board 12 and put it down at the foul line 10 dot, use a suit case release, it will go straight then jump over and take out the 7 pin.
If I start on board 17 same speed use a little spin on it, and toss it out (loft) to the 10 arrow it goes to the pocket.

The point is at the same speed (slow 11-12mph) but using different releases and targets the ball will hook just fine, my LT48, will do the same thing, depending on the day may need to adjust starting point a bit.


But please let me ask, how many revs do you have?
I have 150 rpms. At Parkway if I roll up second arrow nice and slow it will not take out the 7 pin, it may roll into the pocket or it may go too long and hit light.
I never get a ball hooking so hard left that it takes out the 7 pin or even goes Brooklyn.
Parkway has a lot of oil and Kearny has way more oil and Brunswick Anvilane surface which makes it even slicker.
These lanes are a flood to me and my release style.

However, I wonder if last night my Guru Supreme at 4000 grit was actually too strong on Parkway.
It would go up second arrow and then move weakly to the pocket and not carry.
But when I released it, it felt like it had trouble sliding up the lane and the rotation was slower too.
Maybe it just burned up in a straight line and did nothing when it hit the backend.

Bottom line: I want my rubber ball reaction out of a reactive ball.

Since I am now bowling on modern houses (Parkway and next weak Kearny) I need a ball that will give me the Hardwick Rubber Ball reaction on normal volume house shots.

I need a ball that will compliment my style and not fight it or even negate it.

What kind of ball is that???

Remember my release specs:
-Full Roller
-Suitcase release
-11-12 mph off the hand
-150 rpms
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
Kearny House Avg: 177
Parkway House Avg. 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher
Hammer Widow Spare
Billy Hardwick Rubber Ball
Columbia Scout Reactive

Top
#197446 - 05/09/17 06:45 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Forgive me, I didn't read the thread in its entirety, but Nord, you are right, modern reactive bowling balls do reguire a certain velocity in order to behave properly.

Too low of speed will cause over hooking for one person, under hooking for another, loss of miss room, bad pin carry, etc.

A good example are the early 90s PBA shows, particularly the senior tour. You can listen to those and get a good education on the struggles bowlers of that era were having controlling and manipulating the "new" reactive balls. One of the biggest issues was the bowlers needed to learn how to consistently have more speed.

My dad is another good anecdotal example. He has low speed, very low tilt, and bowls on a low volume shot. Reactive balls roll out, require precision accuracy, and carry poorly for him. But his 1988 Faball Blue Hammer has always given him exceptional carry, consistency, and area.

If you listen to the top pros today, its all about "matching up." Those of use with more unique deliveries often have to think out of the box. Just ask Jakob Butturff or Jesper Svensson.
_________________________
Career Highs: 300/759

Top
#197447 - 05/09/17 06:49 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 683
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: nord
Bottom line: I want my rubber ball reaction out of a reactive ball.

I'm sort of the opinion that you're not going to find this. Reactive balls just aren't meant to do that type of motion.

Originally Posted By: Nord
-11-12 mph off the hand
-150 rpms

Originally I was trying to see how much faster your shot was for the second video, and it led to this I'm about to post. I know it doesn't really answer your original question, but I figured you would find it interesting and/or useful.

I'm curious about the last time you determined rev rate and speed and/or how you did determine these numbers. I took your first shot from the Hardwick video and analyzed it in a frame by frame video analyzer from the internet. That first shot took 3.28 seconds from release to the head pin, which equates to 12.47 mph on average. It took about 0.72 seconds to get to the arrows for an average speed of 14.2 mph in the first 15 feet of the lane. Your second shot in the video was about the same.

The first shot completed 7.5 rotations in 3.28 seconds for an average rev rate of 137.2 rpm. I then measured how much time it took to make one revolution after your release, which was 0.52 seconds for a rev rate of 115.4 rpm for that first rotation. Your second shot in that video was also about the same.

I know this is not necessarily what you asked about, but I thought it might be useful information for you since it doesn't really match your statement. As a side note, the one shot I analyzed from the 2nd video had an average speed of 13.3 mph for the whole lane and was an average of 15 mph in the first 15 feet of the lane.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(10)
HS-789

Top
#197448 - 05/09/17 06:54 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: champ]
nord Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 694
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: champ
Forgive me, I didn't read the thread in its entirety, but Nord, you are right, modern reactive bowling balls do reguire a certain velocity in order to behave properly.

Too low of speed will cause over hooking for one person, under hooking for another, loss of miss room, bad pin carry, etc.

A good example are the early 90s PBA shows, particularly the senior tour. You can listen to those and get a good education on the struggles bowlers of that era were having controlling and manipulating the "new" reactive balls. One of the biggest issues was the bowlers needed to learn how to consistently have more speed.

My dad is another good anecdotal example. He has low speed, very low tilt, and bowls on a low volume shot. Reactive balls roll out, require precision accuracy, and carry poorly for him. But his 1988 Faball Blue Hammer has always given him exceptional carry, consistency, and area.

If you listen to the top pros today, its all about "matching up." Those of use with more unique deliveries often have to think out of the box. Just ask Jakob Butturff or Jesper Svensson.


Ah ha! I thought so! I knew I wasn't imagining things. What you describe Champ is exactly my situation.

On the dry Poway lanes I can use rubber, stay relaxed and score really well.
On the wetter normal house shots I have yet to find a ball that will allow me to stay relaxed and focus on shot making and keep my average up.
The reactive balls are just fighting me the whole way.

Quote:
You described my perfectly here:

"Too low of speed will cause...under hooking for another, loss of miss room, bad pin carry, etc."


So what do I do???
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
Kearny House Avg: 177
Parkway House Avg. 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher
Hammer Widow Spare
Billy Hardwick Rubber Ball
Columbia Scout Reactive

Top
#197449 - 05/10/17 12:15 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Basically, if you can't add speed and revs, you're already doing it...searching for the right ball and working on improving inherent accuracy.

I feel like there has to be something out there you can use (and I know you've tried a lot.) Something with a core, a urethane cover, and a bunch of abralon pads should get you there. Have you tried the modern hammers? I really like the black and the purple.

If you find one ball you love, and bowl at different centers with different oil conditions, a ball spinner could be the best 200 bucks you ever spend. Then you can quickly and effectively set yourself up for league each night.
_________________________
Career Highs: 300/759

Top
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >



Moderator:  Angel, Community Manager 
Savings That Support BowlingCommunity.com
We need your help!
Rather than begging for donations we're asking you to do one simple thing to help keep these forums running smooth:
When shopping for anything on Amazon.com or eBay please use these links to go to the web sites.

This won't cost you a cent!
You'll still get the exact same low prices, deals and free or low cost shipping; it doesn't change anything for you at all! The items do not have to be bowling related; all purchases made through these links help us! Amazon.com and eBay will pay us a small commission for every sale and it's helping us cover the expenses.

BowlingCommunity.com Recent Posts
2017 USBC Open Championships
by 6_ball_man - 21 minutes 9 seconds ago
Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard!
by Mkirchie - Today at 06:39 AM
Balls with no filler
by BOSStull - Yesterday at 08:15 PM
Interesting Week... almost four 300 games
by Dennis Michael - 08/17/17 08:17 AM
Brunswick "The Grizz" Vintage Urethane ball
by ExBronxiteBowler - 08/16/17 01:55 PM
Lane Machine Breakdowns
by Dennis Michael - 08/16/17 10:00 AM
Loving the sport patterns
by wronghander - 08/14/17 09:52 PM
Sign-up for fall VL closes Aug. 20
by Richie V. - 08/13/17 09:56 PM
Other sports that use a ball
by BOSStull - 08/13/17 09:31 AM
Oh boy! Oh boy! Oh BOY!!!
by goobee - 08/10/17 12:25 PM
Frozen rope with a twist
by W9JAB - 08/10/17 11:02 AM
Code Red
by rrb6699 (RayRay) - 08/08/17 06:06 AM
Terms Of Use
Use of this community signifies your agreement to the Community Standards and Conditions of Use.

About BowlingFans.com | Contact Us | Advertise With Us | Site Map
Use of this website constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. | Material Connection Disclosure

Copyright © 1998 - 2017 - usrbingeek LLC | Copyright Policy
BowlingFans.com, BowlingFans, The Right Approach, Kegler's Connection, Tour411, BallBeat, BowlingCommunity.com, BowlSearch.com, and Bowling News You Can Use are trademarks of usrbingeek LLC. All other trademarks and tradenames are property of their respective owners.