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#197513 - 05/17/17 11:42 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: 82Boat69]
mmalsed Offline
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Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1283
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
A ball rotating in the same direction as the skid will create less friction than a ball rotating perpendicular to the skid.


Actually not true - a ball rotating in the same direction as the skid. . . I'm ASSUMING this means that the skid is forward and the ball is rotating in the same direction, forward. . . in this case, you have FULL friction. There is no slide, thus there is no LOSS in friction. That's what skid is - a loss of friction. The surface of the ball, in a roll (i.e. ball rotating in the same direction as the skid) is NOT moving in relation to the lane surface - if the ball were FLAT, it would not move, but since the ball is round, the ball surface does not move, but rather moves to a new "piece" of surface.

Quote:
The reason crankers can bank off of the dry area is simply axis rotation and a drier area of the lane.


Partially true - it is more that they find traction, overcome hysteresis and skid (loss of traction) and that traction changes the vectors (direction) of the ball movement. Really, it's very similar to a car's skidding. Once the speed of the car and the spinning tires slows to where the tires can overcome their momentum, grab traction and begin accelerating in a new direction (all of which overlaps) then the car changes direction. SAME THING with a bowling ball.

Quote:
Reactive cover balls will skid less on drier lanes because they create more 'friction'.
It's friction that stops a ball skidding and allows that ball to begin hooking.
It's also friction that slows a ball to the point that axis rotation takes over.
Here's an easy experiment. Take your favorite reactive ball, put as much axis rotation on it as possible and throw it at a 10 pin. Record the speed with a stop watch or using the on-lane camera. Now, do the same with a plastic ball. The plastic ball will travel much faster over the same distance. Why? Less friction between the lane and the ball.


LOL - I think we may have been saying similar things but with different verbiage. smile
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#197514 - 05/17/17 05:46 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: mmalsed]
82Boat69 Online   content
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Only at the beginning. As the ball slows all along it's initial ball-path, isn't friction increasing from axis rotation while friction caused by initial ball speed decreasing? Otherwise, what would cause the ball to change directions?

I agree, initial friction maybe less, but will a ball skid a greater distance?
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#197515 - 05/17/17 06:08 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: mmalsed]
82Boat69 Online   content
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I said that backwards. Isn't friction increasing as ball speed decreases, otherwise what would cause the ball to change directions.
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#197516 - 05/17/17 06:27 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: mmalsed]
82Boat69 Online   content
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Here's a question. If I was throwing a ball on a frozen lake versus a bowling lane, would my ball ever change direction? Or, just continue in a straight line until it stops. I've actually bowled on such a condition :-)

With lane conditions from a THS creating more friction on the outsides of the lane and farther down the lane, does the physics become more complex?

Drier conditions outside will cause axis rotation to create more friction and the end of the pattern will cause more friction in every direction. Is what we experience as bowlers different than what a math equation says should happen?
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#197517 - 05/19/17 12:22 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
mmalsed Offline
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Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1283
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
well, there is always SOME friction, just very low amounts on oil and/or ice.

On ice (I'm assuming glass-smooth) since the amount of surface of your ball that would touch the ice is very small, the amount of friction created would be miniscule so. . . likely it would skate for . . . forever. smile

Friction will increase with a decrease in speed, yes.

Friction is increasing due to multiple factors. Speed is one. Change in lane surface is another.

The ball's internal properties do NOT impact friction (EXCEPT for ONE thing - making the ball flare which brings "fresh" surface to bear) - friction is the amount of resistance to movement between two surfaces. That's it. The equation for it is F=F(n)*u where u (actually micro, but I don't know how to get that on here) is the coefficient of friction, and F(n) is the normal force (mass * gravity, basically)

In reality, it's NOT a simple math equation. There is a coefficient of friction which is basically the "stiction" between the two surfaces - which in our case is impacted by the oil (how viscous it is, how thick it is), the lane surface (how hard and smooth it is), the ball's surface (grit, whether it gets coated with oil itself, hardness) etc. There is gravity (which we can use as a standard) and the weight of the ball - which gets us the "normal" force.


The axis and tilt of rotation only gets us the VECTOR that the ball wants to travel. They impact what the ball does while sliding (the amount of flare) and what happens once the friction between ball and lane increases to the point that the ball's rotation vector overcomes the imparted vector (the slide direction) - how gradual the directional change is and how much of a directional change it is.
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#197518 - 05/19/17 03:17 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
Dennis Michael Offline
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Registered: 12/11/05
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mmalsed, I appreciate your explanations. Keep up the good work.
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#197519 - 05/19/17 03:31 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: mmalsed]
82Boat69 Online   content
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Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 456
A/S/L: 69/M/California
Striction?

I think that's what I get when I drink too much beer.
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#197527 - 05/24/17 05:19 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
nord Offline
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Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 680
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA

At Parkway this Monday I was using the Dark Legend at the same 1000 grit. I was playing up second arrow.
The ball would not strike. Kept leaving flat 10, or 7, or other single pins. I struggled with this for a full game and barely got a 160.
In the second game I moved right and brought out my Rack Attack also at 1000 grit and aimed it at the pocket. No change in results. Finished with a 189.

In game 3 I went back to the Dark Legend, moved my target and feet in, hitting 11 1/2 out to 10 and back. A tip shot.
Now the ball was striking. Closed with a 211.

So once again it is hard to know whether the ball is too weak or too strong.
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#197558 - 05/27/17 10:17 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
SteveH Offline
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Registered: 12/09/12
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I will go back and read the entire thread when I can settle down.

But question to Nord. Are you using asymmetrical balls? I've come to love the symmetricals for some of the issues you're having.
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#197561 - 05/28/17 08:51 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: SteveH]
Mkirchie Offline
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Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 670
A/S/L: 36/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: SteveH
But question to Nord. Are you using asymmetrical balls? I've come to love the symmetricals for some of the issues you're having.


I've owned one asymmetric ball. I'll never do it again, I also had similar issues.

Mark
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