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#197461 - 05/11/17 08:38 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
82Boat69 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 484
A/S/L: 69/M/California
Have you ever considered surgery for your elbow? You'd be out for awhile but good to go afterwards. I've had shoulder surgery and I now have 2 metal plates and 6 screws holding my lower back together. I'm pain free but just a little rigid at the waist :-)

I also notice you wear a wrist brace or glove on your left hand when you bowl, what's that for?
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#197462 - 05/11/17 09:06 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
82Boat69 Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 484
A/S/L: 69/M/California
Have you ever tried to throw a lighter ball correctly? Maybe 12 or 13 pounds? Still have the same pain?

Also, how do you warm your arm up now before you bowl?
_________________________
14 lb Storm Lock : 50 x 5 x 50 Polished
14 lb Storm Lock : 65 x 5 x 65 Polished
15 lb Storm Hy-Road : 65 x 3-3/8 x 25 Polished
15 lb Columbia Blue Dot: 1979 Version

325 RPM'a @ 16 MPH

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#197463 - 05/11/17 11:00 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
W9JAB Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 264
A/S/L: 66/m/Il.
Quote:
So if I hear what you are saying correctly, I basically roll the weakest, wimpiest ball in the history of bowling and no matter what super high tech ball I use, or what lane I play on, it is always going to be a fail.

Nope that's is not my point at all.

Quote:
The only hope I have is to throw my game away and get a brand new game and start bowling the way everyone else bowls, which is a semi-roller with fingertip ball.

I would never tell you to change your game.

I discovered that you need to play your own game early on in my bowling journey.
It's fun to watch Belmo, but I would never be able to keep up his style for three games, I like Walter Ray's style of running the "twig" but I end up powering the ball in the gutter if I play too far right.
In League I can get can too much adrenaline flowing and start over powering the ball because I bowling with some power players, and what to up my game by throwing harder than I should.

So you need to know and play your own game, with that said.

Remember that any ball regardless of the manufactures hype, is a static or inert item, it has no power of it's own, it can't generate power, only transfer the energy put into it, and that energy in going to decrease from the time it leaves your hand, the longer it rolls, until it either comes to a stop on it's own or it interrupted by a another object like a pin. And yes the core can "store" energy like a fly wheel but it's also a zero gain, only loss.

Now I have tried the suitcase, a lot of people I bowl with (old f*rts like my self) use it, and get decent results, and all bowl under 12mph, some woman as slow as 7mph.
What I found out using the suit case, and is verified by the results of others as well as my own experimentation is that all the suitcase releases'rs (is that a word?) I see use a finger tip drilling.

With a finger tip drilling, by varying the angel of the thumb, from parallel to horizontal will affect the amount of hook.
To elaborate the two extremes are thumb pointing down toward the floor on release is one extreme, or thumb pointing to your leg and fingers pointing to the floor is the other extreme.
So this is something you might try.

On a slightly different note,
I have changed to a 3/4 from suitcase it was long road, I was trying to get rotation by keeping my fingers under the ball and lifting with my fingers to impart rotation, all that did was make my ring finger so sore I could not do it any more, I even bought a brace called Steel fingers, (http://www.steelfingers.com) turned out to be a waste of time and money. What I found the works for me is to use my thumb to turn the ball (only a few inches) and let the ball fall off my fingers, to get the needed rotation, keeping the stress off my ring finger.
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#197464 - 05/11/17 11:50 AM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
Jazlar Von Steich Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 102
A/S/L: 42/M/Windsor, Ontario, Canada
What resin balls do you have besides the Guru and Dark Legend? Do you have anything weaker? Sounds like you need something that is going to store energy before making a move. Your release has limitations, but I will not sit here and believe that speed is required for resin. This is blatantly false. Speed certainly doesn't hurt, but I see plenty of people who throw the ball slower WITH resin that do quite well.

Actually, there are some people that bowl around here that have a similar release to you with slower speeds who can make resin work. You can't expect to go from urethane/rubber to heavy oil resin balls, play a similar line, and expect the same type of reaction! Not going to happen! You need to not be so quick to give up on trying different lines while practicing with your heavy oil balls. You need to find enough oil for them to work. If that's not happening, get something weaker.

Try something like a Match Solid. Most ball companies have something like this. But I have personally seen a few older gentleman use this in league with slower ball speed and do quite well. Compliment that with the pearl version or maybe something even a little weaker. Get away from the aggressive stuff. It is clearly burning up far too much energy.

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#197465 - 05/11/17 12:29 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1313
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
Yeah, Nord, nobody should tell you to change your style. Your style works for you. . .

but there will always be caveats - just as there are caveats for Belmo, there are caveats for ALL of us. . . and we need to learn to work with those caveats, within our limitations.

You have specific limitations to your game. We all do.

Yours are speed, your extreme side-rotation, your delivery.

The point of bowling, though, is really to have fun! You're progressing really well with your game.
_________________________
Avg: 200
Season High Gm: 276 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 714 / Lifetime: 759

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

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#197466 - 05/11/17 12:49 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
Dennis Michael Online   jestera
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9527
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Wow! This story hits home.

After 2 knee operations, I saw my speed drop from 17.5 to 12.5. Amd my average plummet from 207 to 176.

Moreover, I couldn't control any of my equipment. I bought new stuff, but nothing worked, especially hard rolling, asymmetrical equipment.

Everything checked up early. I couldn't get any length. I lost my first ball motion and I couldn't pick up routine spares.

I went from 6+ strikes per game to 3. And, coupled that with and average of 2 opens a game. I do track those stats.

I tried all lines, from straight up 6 to playing the 4th arrow. All failed.

Finally, took out some old equipment, and tried it. One ball, in particular, had a symmetrical core, a 2.60 rg and a diff of .032.

Wow, I got length, a strong finish, and with consistency. Moreover, I was able to control it with my speed.

I've done all the tricks; stand back, take longer step, hold ball higher, and added a step. Some with mixed results. But, that one ball has given me hope.

Hope this helps. Today's reactive equipment, I am convinced, is made for high speed and less hand. To match the dryer house shot, and a 170 bowler.

Look at Mo's videos. He always talks about the skid phase of the ball as the most important. Length on the lane is key.
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Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




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#197467 - 05/11/17 02:14 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 701
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA


First I want to thank all you guys for your advice and suggestions. I really appreciate it, especially since in San Diego there are not really any good coaches and bowling is declining here so it is pretty sad.
A big center, Vista Entertainment Center, that has been in business for 60 years and has tons of leagues was just sold off by the daughter of the owner after he died.
She made a deal with Honda to put a car dealership there. She said she sold because “Bowling is a dying sport.”

So that is what I face in this area and that is why I appreciate this forum and your help and personal experiences.

To answer one of your questions, the reactive balls I have are:

Dark Legend Solid/Asymmetric – Strong Drilling
Guru Supreme/ Asymmetric - Strong Drilling
Marvel S Solid/Symmetric – Medium Drilling
Rack Attack Solid/Symmetric – Weak Drilling

All of these are solids and pretty damn strong. I wonder if that is my reactive problem?
Maybe all I need is something pretty weak that I can ease into the lane nice and slow and will skid a long way and retain energy and rotation and then grab in the back end and go?
I mean, my favorite ball reaction is a rubber ball that has been lane shined to probably 7000 grit for God’s sake!
And when I use my rubber ball I actually move in and keep it in the oil and push it from left to right with a subtle tip shot and get a great reaction that carries very well as you can see in my Hardwick video.

Would a Polished Pearl be what I should have been using all the time?
Could it be that I have been using the wrong reactive balls for my style since day one?

As to finger tip: I used to have fingertip in the early days before I had a correct fitting and it caused a lot of pain and I could only use 12 pound balls and even they would cause pain in my forearm.
I moved to conventional grip with a ton of forward pitch to help offset the pain and in time the pain went away and I was able to move up to using 14 and then 15 pound gear. If I was going to go to fingertip I would need a true master to measure and fit me correctly.

Such a master is Ron Machniak of Precision Bowling. Ron worked with me online and got me my current fitting, I took all the measurements of my hand he wanted, I sent photos and so on and with his conventional fitting I was able to mostly not have any pain as long as I don’t bowl too much. Two leagues a week is my max. He would be the one to fit me for fingertip. If you feel I must go to fingertip then I can start the process with him. But I have to know what reactive ball I should actually be using for my slower low rev style so the ball will not fight me all the time.
A ball that will perfectly compliments my style.

Thanks all!
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
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#197468 - 05/11/17 06:36 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
djp1080 Offline
High Roller

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 329
A/S/L: 70/m/IL
Been reading the mail here.
Dennis, I'm glad you're sticking with it and finding a solution.
Nord, You're style with your speed and all is pretty impressive. You've been at it for quite a while. If I remember correctly, Joe Bowler and I recommended that you try a Storm Tropical Breeze quite a while ago. I think you gave it a try, too. All of that line have very little differential and are polished to about 5000 grit even though Storm calls it 1500 grit. Perhaps you should give it another go.
I'm still at it, too. I've gotten my speed down to a reasonable level, but have other problems that need tending to; however, with the lower speed I'm noticing that how far the ball gets before it makes it's move is the determining factor now. It kind of ties into what you, Nord, and Dennis are saying. I guess what goes around, comes around full circle.
Good luck guys!

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#197475 - 05/12/17 05:31 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 701
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA

So Ron Machniak just got done looking at my video of the Reactive vs. Urethane and he said it was pretty obvious the Marvel S was simply not gripping the lane, and when it finally did it was far too late.
The Urethane Crow however was gripping when it should and rolling strong.

This is exactly what I thought was happening.

Ron said:
"Resin's Achilles heel is that the cover will need constant care and feeding for consistent ball reaction from set to set.
Bowl, clean, surface prep, repeat until you get to 40-70 games (or so), then de-oil.
Some of the milder covers can be just as bad as the stronger ones regarding oil soak, and I have been observing that many older gen covers change surface texture quicker as well."


So it is possible that my reactive balls are dying. I do clean them after every set but I guess that is not enough.
Maybe a de-oil and resurface is all that is needed to bring them back?
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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#197477 - 05/12/17 06:52 PM Re: Reactive Balls are designed to be throw hard! [Re: nord]
djp1080 Offline
High Roller

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 329
A/S/L: 70/m/IL
Reactive resin balls tend to require some maintenance as they all tend to soak up oil (some more than others) and the surface will change as you continue to use them.
Most all of my gear is from Storm. I've noted that even though several of my balls have the same coverstock, R2S, that they don't all soak up lane oil equally even with the same polished 1500 grit surface out of the box. I have a couple of balls that I seldom do anything maintenance on and they keep working and working.
One of my favorites is their Hy-Road. It soaks up oil at a pretty high rate, but it doesn't seem to affect its reaction all that much as there isn't all that much filler in that ball. Perhaps that's why it keeps working. I can put it in my homemade ball oven and it will sweat oil for about an hour before it's done sometimes. I may do that once every 3 to 6 months.
Finding balls that work for your style are important. Finding those that don't require a lot of maintenance are helpful, too.

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