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#191857 - 07/28/15 06:46 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
B-Hammer Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 1818
A/S/L: 30/M/Bellingham WA
Working on the physical strength and abilities is still working on your game. If someone hits the gym for 10 hours a week to get stronger or more fit and then now has the ability to palm a ball onto the lane with high revs they have indirectly worked on their game. Doesn't matter if they are in the gym for bowling reasons or not, they are still bettering themselves. It also doesn't matter if they put in this gym time 20 years ago, they still got stronger and can use techniques that a weaker person can't.

Quote:
Are modern bowling balls and lane conditions deceiving bowlers and the public into believing they are better than they are?
No, they are making it more interesting. You have more options and can do more things with the ball. They also give less physically capable bowlers a chance to get a similar reaction to a bowler that has more physical abilities.

Flip what you are saying about striking around. You say it's lucky that they have more miss area, but they are saying the same thing about you. Do you think it seems fair to them if you string together 4 or 5 strikes in a row while slow rolling a ball onto the lane, when they have to work their ass off to get the ball to "full power". Like I've said before every bowler is jealous of every "lucky shot" or "lucky break" that every other bowler gets.

Quote:
I guess we must say that league bowlers today are vastly superior to league bowlers in 1977 by a long, long, long way.


Yes I think you can say that in general the average league bowler knows how to strike more then decades old bowlers. With the info that is being shared, with the knowledge that is now common, with the examples around us to emulate, with the general increase in fitness (for some). Yeah bowlers today can get good faster simply by copying other people out there. Are they more accurate, are they more consistent, etc? No, but they can recognize and emulate striking techniques that work and striking = scoring. Do the balls, conditions, and ths help, yup, but I still believe that they are better on any condition.

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
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#191858 - 07/28/15 07:11 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1328
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
Quote:
Yet every week at Kearny at least one 300 game is bowled and sometimes two a night.


You know that Kearny reports all of its league scores to league secretary? Sanctioned or not, they're all available to view.

Let's examine your premise of at least one 300 game per night, sometimes two (I'm assuming scratch . . .):

For the whole week last week, ZERO 300s, 1 279, 1 278, 1 277
For the whole week before, ZERO 300s, 1 289, 2 279, 3, 278, 2 277
for the whole week three weeks ago, ZERO 300s, 1 299, 1 287, 2 279, 3 278, 2 277
for the whole week four weeks ago, 2 300s, 3, 279, 3, 278

Premise of 1+ 300 per DAY? Busted. In 28 days' of scoring, 2 300s; 1 299, lots of 279s, 278s and 277s . . .

that's a long way.
_________________________
Avg: 200
Season High Gm: 276 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 714 / Lifetime: 759

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

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#191859 - 07/28/15 07:43 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: mmalsed]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
All your points are well taken and well thought out.

I will concede defeat in this discussion.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
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Visionary The Crow Urethane
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#191860 - 07/29/15 01:46 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
So now that I am over the whole modern vs. old school controversy, and have been humbled, hopefully you are still willing to throw me a bone and help straighten me out so I have a chance in this game.

Forgive my earlier passion and nostalgia and please help me out because I am going absolutely crazy!

I just got back from league in Kearny a few minutes ago.

I did super horrible.

I used the Marvel S at 1000 grit.

The lanes were super slick, more slick than usual, if you can believe that.

In game 1 and 2 the Marvel S had no power whatsoever, even on pocket hits.

I kept getting the flat 10 and some splits.

I was using the Marvel S for spares as well and I was just missing everything.

This ball had zero pop, no pin action at all.

When I released it, it rotated very slowly like it was breaking hard and though it did turn over, it was just so dead when it hit the pins that it left a mess.

No luck at all.

Finally in the 9th frame of game two I felt instinctively that I needed to use my Glitter n' Gold ball.

I don't know why, but I just felt this.

I closed out the game with my first marks.

I then decided I had nothing to lose, so in game 3 I devoted myself to the Glitter n' Gold.

Complete turn around! I had only one open frame due to a release mistake at the 7 pin.

Otherwise I was clean.

I only missed the pocket once and every hit, even light hits, were blasting the pins and getting lots of action.

The Glitter n' Gold went perfectly straight, spiraling down the lane rotating very quickly, not losing rotation speed like the Marvel S was, and at the very last second it would turn over and roll a few feet.

My line was: right foot on 9 and target second arrow.

I felt really good and confident using this ball because it went exactly where I threw it, it did not divert from its course, so my accuracy was rewarded and enhanced.

It came off my hand smooth as silk like sliding a block of ice across a skating rink.

This was in strong contrast to the Marvel S which acted like I was sliding it on rubber because the rotations slowed down so fast and the skid phase was weak.

So now I wonder if I am all wrong in my understanding of what my game needs. I assumed because of my 90 degree axis rotation and low revs and slower ball speed that I needed a strong ball with a low grit to make it read the lane.

But now I am wondering if the total opposite is true. Perhaps I need a very weak, highly polished reactive that will slide like the Glitter n' Gold the whole length of the lane, retaining axis rotation in its slide, but when it reaches the back end it will turn over at the last second and grab strongly in the last few feet and be able to drive through rather than deflect like the Glitter n' Gold mostly did.

Below are my scores for the night so you can see the sad reactive ball story followed by the bright Glitter n' Gold finish.


Attachments
Marvel S vs. Glitter n' Gold.png


_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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#191861 - 07/29/15 09:21 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
I don't mean to pile on but I always thought of the modern ball as the "great equalizer". It allowed stroker and tweener players to have carry percentage nearly on par with crankers. I felt like a lot of players lost out and a lot of others were able to benefit from the new tech... while some were more able to adjust than others for whatever reason (between the ears? I don't know).

Guys like Holman and Ballard, to me they were never the same after resin became dominant. Kind of hard-pressed to think of a bowler who did well that wouldn't have without the advent of resin, I mean Walter Ray was gonna win regardless. It's more that some bowlers were able to win when guys like Holman and Ballard started falling off.

Anyways, that's whatever.

Ball motion can be so hard to read and understand. I started out with my benchmark ball (DV8 Diva) last week, had a great look in practice and in the first game, starting with the first 5 or 6. Then the ball seemed to lose its pop, I thought it was something in my delivery so I stuck with it. By the middle of the second game I was saying "I should switch balls" but I was stubborn, kept trying to move left or roll it more to the right to get some drive but it just wasn't working.

Finally I switched to my IQ Tour Pearl, (much cleaner cover, less diff, longer pin-to-pap layout). Wow, look at that ball snap into the pocket. I didn't score CRAZY but it was a ball reaction I could work with.

For myself, I definitely need to learn to listen to that little voice and not be so unwilling to make ball changes. Also, that you won't KNOW the result of a ball change until you try it. If you're using something middle-of-the-road like the Diva is in my arsenal you have two choices (stronger or weaker), if you're using your strongest or weakest piece there's only one way to go.

Hope this relates.
_________________________
Code Red, Code Black, Roto Grip Hustle POW, White Dot in the bag.

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#191862 - 07/29/15 11:23 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: 56bird]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Quote:
56bird said:
I always thought of the modern ball as the "great equalizer".


I understand what you are staying. And for the most part I do see this with most players. Reactive helps them have higher scores by giving them better carry.

But my frustration is, for over 3 years I have been struggling to get a reactive ball to make my game any better.

It seems that no matter what I do, I can't get a reactive ball to help me, and they mostly hurt me.

Last night was an example, with reactive I barely was able to close out with a 100 score, and that was only because I put the reactive ball away for the 9th and 10th and went to my Glitter n' Gold spare ball which saved me.

Then in the next game with the Gold, I couldn't miss a 1" target for 10 frames except for one little boo-boo missing a 7 pin.

Now the lane was super slick and everyone was struggling getting the ball to do anything.

With my Marvel S I could tell that it just did not have that "something."

Switching to my 1000 grit super polished Glitter n' Gold allowed my to hit everything I aimed at and keep the spares easy and get a couple of strikes.

The only thing it could not do is drive through the pins to strike.

As I bowled with it I was thinking, "if I only had a ball that would slide exactly like the Glitter n' Gold, but grab at the last second so it could drive through, then I would be looking really good."

I could stand way right like I did with the Gold and pipe it over second arrow down and in. No hook, just slide and a quick turn over/roll phase for a few feet and bam! Pins gone...
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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#191863 - 07/29/15 11:43 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1328
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
Nord - I think it's going to depend on the lane conditions.

First - one question. CAN you rotate your hand even 20 degrees? I.e. instead of your thumb at 9:00, can you have your thumb even at 10:00? 11:00?

I only ask because it would give you a ton of flexibility. Your game is so very similar to that of my M-in-Law that it's spooky. When I was able to get her to do the 10:00 and 11:00 (she can't go further) she has some additional options.

Here's why - when you're doing that 90deg axis and 0deg tilt, you're automatically burning all of your rotational energy up. There are situations where this may be lessened or mitigated, and that's all well and fine.

But. . . conditions will crop up and being able to see that your ball is burning up all of its energy at 0/90 and being able to make a quick change by just rotating your wrist that 10 degrees and get a touch of forward roll . . . this gives you a tool in your toolbox. Even 10 degrees will help your ball hold some of its energy.

Don't throw away your other balls. . . but consider your approach to which you start with.

My "benchmark" ball changes depending on the season at Norco. For some reason, Brunswick Classic is very sensitive to hot/dry/dusty vs. humid (probably that since it's all horse country, it gets dusty and affects the lanes - just my guess) so if it's dry, I start with my IQ Pearl, if it's humid I start with my Marvel S.

Thing is - I know what they do and are supposed to do. If I see a strange reaction . . . if the IQ burns up quick on the lane; if the Marvel doesn't make its usual turn. . . I change within a couple of tosses. Preferably in practice/warmup. and I have an idea which way to go - less or more.

That's why I carry more than 1 ball (plus, of course, my right-side ball - the white-dot). I can start with my benchmark and that TELLS me what the lanes are doing and I can change.


You have 6 balls - do you bring all 6? Which is your most easy to read ball? Which ball could you use on the most conditions and that will tell you what the lanes are doing? Don't have one? PLAY AROUND! smile Experiment and find one or two that seem to have more communication to you - that you can watch and go, "ah . . . HA!!! Looky there. . . " PLAY AROUND - don't worry about score, just toss balls down the lane watching their reactions. Take notes, even if only mental.

And play with your delivery angle - NOT asking you to change from suitcase. I know my M-in-Law can't. Okay - but work on changing your wrist angle just a touch. If she can do it, at twice your age, you should be able to do it - even if just a touch. smile You'd be surprised how much that can help - and it gives you another tool in the box.

Sometimes sockets are best, sometimes combination wrenches work best, sometimes ratcheting combinations wrenches work best. . . and sometimes ya just gotta grab the vice grips. smile

But if you have a few tools available, you have flexibility.
_________________________
Avg: 200
Season High Gm: 276 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 714 / Lifetime: 759

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

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#191865 - 07/29/15 08:11 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: mmalsed]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Quote:
Mmalsed said:
when you're doing that 90deg axis and 0deg tilt, you're automatically burning all of your rotational energy up.

A very, very, very interesting observation.

This was the impression I got last night. Even though my Marvel S at 1000 grit was rotating down the lane and seemed to be laboring to turn over, the rotation rate was clearly slowing down as it moved forward and the ball did not have any backend reaction or pop on the pins when it finally did turn over, even standing far right and throwing straight at the pins.

In the second game, when I barely got a 100, I had turned my thumb up (11 o’clock) thinking I needed earlier roll on the ball, but as that game attested to, the ball was just bouncing off the pins.

It was not until I balled down to my polished spare ball and went back to 90 degrees that I got any action on the pins.

Once I pulled out that Glitter n’ Gold I was a new man and I was no longer a victim of the lane even though that ball could not strike.



Do I have a benchmark ball that I can use to read the lane and figure out what is going on?

None of my reactive balls do anything I like on any lane, so I don’t trust them.

Maybe one of them can be made to do something right and then I can use it to get a feel for a lane and then have options up and down from it.

I love my Glitter n’ Gold but that is only because it does the same thing on any lane, slide fast and straight and hit hard, but of course it tells me nothing about the lane condition.



At Poway it is easy, my first ball out of the bag is my AMF Angle Plus. That will tell me immediately if I need to ball up or down, or just stay with it.

If I have to ball up, I go to The Judge, if I have to ball down I go to my Hardwick rubber ball or my Glitter n’ Gold.

I cannot use reactive at Poway, they die immediately or hook too much with no control.



At Kearny the AMF slides a little less than the Glitter n’ Gold and a little more than The Judge, but all of them slide and don't grip in the backend enough to strike much.

Actually the urethane balls can slide more than the Glitter or my rubber ball because the oil soaks into their grooves and cannot be wiped out, so they become real slick.

So when I first bring them out they work for about 3 or 4 frames then they get super saturated and they are done.



I honestly have been looking into changing my thumb position and I have been experimenting with this.

The problem is, the drilling I use for my suitcase release does not work for an 11 o’clock release, it is far too loose and I have to death grip the ball to hold on. Even more tape does not help.

This happened to me in frame 7 and 8 of game two. I was using the 11 o’clock release for the whole game and finally I went back to suitcase.

First throw, I almost went down the lane with the ball!!! It barely came off and I got a gutter.

It took 3 more scary stick releases before my hand relaxed enough to get the ball off in suitcase.

My suitcase grip is carefully tuned so it hooks onto my hand like an alien face hugger and I barely have to squeeze to hold it. As soon as I turn my thumb up towards 10 or 11 o’clock though, it falls off unless I death grip it.

So I would need to have balls drilled for suitcase and some for 11 o’clock release if I wanted the option of different releases.

I am talking to my pro now about such a thing.



But first order of business I think is finding some way to get some reactive ball to do something useful with my normal suitcase release.

I don’t even have that yet.


Quote:
Mmalsed said:
PLAY AROUND - don't worry about score, just toss balls down the lane watching their reactions

I think will do just that. But please advise an what to do. I have two test subjects: the Marvel S and the Mastermind. I can change the surface on either one or both. I also have a Tropical Breeze.

My goal: I want a ball that reacts exactly like my Glitter n’ Gold with one exception, when the ball reaches those last few feet on the back end before it hits the pins, the ball will get just enough traction to smash through the pins rather than deflect off the pins like the Glitter n’ Gold does.

With the Glitter, because the slide phase was so perfect and long, I could lay the ball in the pocket almost every time, but the Glitter did not have that last minute traction and so I got the weak 10 or a 5 pin or a 7 pin and a couple of strikes. If the Glitter could just grab a touch more it could have carried.

So how can either the Mastermind or Marvel S or even a Tropical Breeze be made to give just that little extra the Glitter did not have, without losing all the slide, length, conservation of energy or accuracy?

Too much to ask?

Sorry for trying your patience, but I feel I am close to a solution!

I await all comments with hope.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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#191867 - 07/30/15 12:15 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1328
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
I'm not sure about drilling - but I would talk with him about your thumb being so loose at 10 or 11 o'clock but fine at 9. That's a difference of 30 degrees or 60 degrees - really, not that much.

In any case, even a little, with consistency, can help.


Second - our balls don't absorb that much oil that quickly. They're not sponges (even though we like to think they are and we complain about them that way) - if you take a drop of mineral oil and drop it on the ball, it will spread out (the nature of surface tension) but it won't disappear into the ball (absorption). The pores of our ball are on the micron level and, while they WILL absorb oil, they don't do it immediately.

Yes, there is some oil that is nasty stick and won't wipe off well. I bowled ABC Nats (back when it was ABC) in Reno and I swear they used 30 weight oil. Gummy, impossible to wipe off. Just disgusting. There are legal wipies that have an additive (like alcohol but I don't think it is) that really help.


Biggest suggestion - digital video recorder. Place low and focus from the back on your arm swing axis so you can focus on your swing plane and what your hand does. Mark your PAP and a line so you can see the rotation and axis. Bowl until your ball reaction changes, then go back and watch, with a friend who can be objective (I'm too hard on myself, my stepson isn't hard enough on himself . . . need a third party! LOL) and see what is really happening with your hand.


What I've found, for me, is that when my ball stops reacting, it doesn't mean my ball has stopped reacting. . . it means my hand is coming around to the FRONT of the ball and I'm not getting the action my brain INSISTS I'm putting into the ball.

It's rarely the ball. Sure, conditions break down. . . and the ball may not match up to the conditions. . . but that's not going to change in one frame or even two. If it just disappears, like Houdini swiped it, then it's more likely that it's US. smile (with me, it's pretty much always me . . .) Video will help identify.
_________________________
Avg: 200
Season High Gm: 276 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 714 / Lifetime: 759

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

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#191869 - 07/30/15 07:15 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: mmalsed]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
When I talk about my “urethane balls” getting oil trapped in the grooves, I am not meaning they absorb oil, I mean they get wet with oil and turn super black and slick and then lose their traction and don’t respond to the lane with the traction they had for the first 5 throws.

Wiping with a cloth or shammy cannot get the oil out of those deep grooves (320 grit) or make the urethane ball less shiny with oil.

They are not like reactive balls that simply suck the oil in and stay dry on the surface and maintain their reaction.

I wish the urethane balls could stay dry because for the first three throws at Kearny the Judge is a monster and hits real hard, but then it is a whimp.

My Pro has suggested exactly what you have, he wants me to mark my axis with tape and put the rotation tape on it and do videos at Kearny showing two balls on the same line so he can study their rotation and decay rate.

The Marvel S at 1000 grit and my Mastermind at 4000 grit.

He can then try to better understand how reactive balls are rolling for me at two opposite grits on the same lane and be able to make proper ball grit and type selections from that data.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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