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#191842 - 07/27/15 11:18 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
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Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
I haven't given up.

I will find a way for my low revs and low speed to work if possible.

But as to the glory days, yes, a lot of our culture has been lost to modern tech and consumerism.

This is true of food as well, light bulbs and a host of other things.

We see large sections of the population buying retro products.

My friend found a classic GE percolator and we made some coffee in it and watched it percolate and let me tell you it made coffee in a way that gave pleasure to life both in the experience and the taste.

Old school.

People from the past, not bred in a world of consumerism and faces stuck in phones, knew how to bring quality to the experience of life.

This has been lost mostly today and today's generation does not even know such class and pleasures ever existed.

They are fed an endless stream of cheap, disposable, trash made by underpaid non-craftsman exported labor.

I watched this video the other day and it kidna brought a tear to my eye. I wish there were lanes like this somewhere...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62jc0fIpt5s
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High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

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#191843 - 07/27/15 11:51 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
mmalsed Online   content
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1328
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
It sounds like you got a reverse block. Here's what happens with a reverse block and modern players - they adapt.

But would they adapt if it was only a single night? No - it's just not worth it. You plug along and gripe about it.

If it were a month worth? You'd see scores rise - probably not as high as on a house shot or even a sport shot, but you'd see them rise.

There is a center in SoCal (don't know if it's still around - I don't go West much) that ran a very high money league. They rotated their oil patterns, and one pattern was always a reverse block. Dry in middle, wet outside. What you saw was people adjusting.

Full rollers suffered badly, btw. They had less leeway than pretty much anyone else.

Everyone else moved outside and rolled it straight up and precise. You miss outside and it's in the channel; you miss inside and you miss the pins. Full rollers had far less leeway. Strokers relied on the balls to hook; tweeners leaned stroker; crankers burned a line outside so they had a bit of forgiveness.


You say there's less precision in a modern game.

But you don't bowl a modern game.

All you have is your impression.

I bowled a couple of games last night and had one of the kids we took jeer at how I "cheated" with my big hook (lanes were VERY dry, all day of open bowling and they were burned - to get any oil, I moved WAAAY left) - but I hit my line nearly every single shot and was rewarded for making sure my entry angle was right and that I hit IN the pocket, not shallow (got stuck with a 2-8 for a shallow pocket, DOH) or high (pocket 4-6? phah! both bad adjustments)

You're missing points that we've made.

Nostalgia? Sure. I bowled with a black beauty in the early 80s. No such thing as a well fitting ball; no inserts so no consistency on a thumb and ugly callouses on fingers. UGLY handwriting on nasty and illegible overheads. Horrible math skills (not me - I'm the EXPERT) and even cheating with hand-written scoring. Just try to explain compound scoring to a math-less newbie.

You had ONE line to the pins and everyone used it - because there was really no hook. Line up right, throw it at an angle to the pocket. If you could throw it straight and hard, you had a higher score. If you could get SOME hook, you had more.

Been there and done that.

Now I have a 15 year old who can throw a nice smooth hook and average 150 and have fun (now if I can get him to AIM, thank you very much)- I have an 83 year old F-in-Law who throws a nice gentle hook and averages 170 but if conditions are nice, he can exceed that (he doesn't have much power anymore) - I have an 80 year old M-in-law who can go full roller or slightly less and averages 150.

NONE of this would have worked 40 years ago. Not as nicely even as we have it now. Not as welcoming to all three.

Is the modern ball ruining our sport?

Complain, moan, wail all you want. 99% of bowlers don't USE the modern ball. . . they use house balls. The 1% of bowlers who do use the modern ball - they have access to success like never before. They have the ability to extend their game FAR later than ever before; they have the ability to succeed earlier than before. The average Joe can get strikes and have a great time.

If you're stuck in the past - then yes, all of the modern equipment is ruining the sport. Open a bowling center with overhead projectors, bad TVs, smoke in the air, NO lane machines (do it with spray bottles and/or mops) . . .

Me? I like the automatic scoring; I like the lane machines that lay down (mostly) consistent conditions; I like the colorful balls (and even nice smelling ones); I like seeing 80+ as well as 15- bowlers succeeding; I like being able to read the scores (we would NOT let my step-dad do the scores. . .illegible!) and not having to worry about fudging scores.

You can't take these without the other.
_________________________
Avg: 200
Season High Gm: 276 / Lifetime: 290
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16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

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#191844 - 07/27/15 11:56 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
mmalsed Online   content
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Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1328
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
BTW - I have a percolator. I also have a new coffee maker that grinds the beans (fresh) and drips the cup using a digital timer - so at 6:30 my coffee starts absolutely fresh.

I've done back to back.

Percolator coffee is not good coffee. because you're constantly rinsing the grounds (typically old and dry) you're over-extracting and you get a ton of bitterness.

Old tech is NOT ALWAYS the best tech. Sometimes it is. . . often it's not.
_________________________
Avg: 200
Season High Gm: 276 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 714 / Lifetime: 759

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

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#191846 - 07/27/15 07:24 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: mmalsed]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA

First off, it was not a reverse bloc. At least not intentionally.

The people that work at Poway do not know what they are doing.

We think they oiled lightly in the morning and then lots of people threw balls up the middle, parties or something and dried all the oil from the middle away all the way out to first arrow.

Because no one rolls right of first arrow there was a touch of oil out there.

So I played up 4 board for half a game (got two gutters in a row) but my rubber ball sucked that last bit of oil away and then that shot was gone as well.

We all adapted as best we could but ball control, even with plastic, was out of hand.

As for 99% of bowlers using house balls?

I am not talking about mom and pops with kids.

I am talking about league bowlers.

None of the bowlers at Kearny use a house ball, all have modern balls and the most popular is the Crux Pearl.

The high rev bowlers do not hit their line or mark exactly, they have many boards of error room.

I see this every week as I watch them very closely.

Like I said before, one player just palms the ball and drops it in the lane like he is losing the ball off his hand.

It arcs strongly to the pins and he hits all over the place on them but he rarely leaves more than one pin standing because his revs are so high the pins explode when he hits them.

If I had super high revs then I guess I could spray the ball too and be ok.

Probably have a much higher average then my weekly hard won low rev low ball speed 165.

But obviously at the "higher level" of the game, revs or not, plopping the ball down in the lane all around your target is not going to win you matches.

Like you said, if you can deliver high revs with pinpoint accuracy then you will be a very dangerous bowler in today's game.

And since the oil is heavy, at least at Kearny, we have no choice but to ball up in order to survive.

But I would repeat my earlier question:

Are modern bowling balls and lane conditions deceiving bowlers and the public into believing they are better than they are?
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

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#191848 - 07/27/15 08:46 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 700
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: nord
Are modern bowling balls and lane conditions deceiving bowlers and the public into believing they are better than they are?

I never really answered the question myself. Not for me personally, I can't speak for how others feel since it is not something that concerns me. I do know that the pros would annihilate me on any condition with any ball.

Originally Posted By: nord
If I had super high revs then I guess I could spray the ball too and be ok.

Probably have a much higher average then my weekly hard won low rev low ball speed 165.

Are you implying that bowlers with a higher rev rate (like me) don't have to work hard because that's the way I read this. I'm constantly working on all aspects of my physical and mental game. One open frame requires a 4 bagger to get back to a 210+ game so an open is nearly a death sentence and mistakes are magnified a ton. I've spent 20 years fine tuning my release and learning how to adjust. Trust me, none of this is easy.

Mark
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Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
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#191850 - 07/27/15 11:16 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
champ Online   content
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2103
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Originally Posted By: nord
Are modern bowling balls and lane conditions deceiving bowlers and the public into believing they are better than they are?


One of my hobbies is competitive rifle shooting. Modern elite shooters utilize unbelievably powerful scopes, highly customized rifles, advanced ammunition, as well as very developed physical techniques and the ability to read wind, as well as understanding how heat elevation, etc play a role in a long distance shot. There is a whole lot of technology involved, but to effectively use that technology, you must have outstanding technique and knowledge.

Has that modern technology made that shooter better than he thinks he is? Say compared to a revolutionary war era soldier with a musket that wasn't accurate at 50 yards.

I say absolutely not. With whatever technology is in your hands, you have to have the skills and knowledge to utilize it to get maximum benefits.
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#191851 - 07/28/15 03:16 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: champ]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Quote:
Mkirchie said:
Are you implying that bowlers with a higher rev rate (like me) don't have to work hard because that's the way I read this.


No. Any bowler that wants to achieve the higher level of the game, with whatever release they use, must work to perfect their craft.

What I am saying is, many bowlers with high revs that I play against in league do not work to perfect their craft and are not really good bowlers as their spare shooting will attest to.

But because they have very high revs they can miss pretty far and get away with it due to their high revs and the superior pin action it produces and the big bounce they can get off a walled house shot that a low rev bowler like myself cannot get away with.

So their high revs, modern reactive ball working with those high revs and an oil condition tailor made for them all help to give them an advantage against a player like me that must rely on half board accuracy to be successful.

Take away their modern ball, revs and cush oil pattern and what are they left with?

Quote:
champ said:
Modern elite shooters utilize unbelievably powerful scopes, highly customized rifles, advanced ammunition, as well as very developed physical techniques and the ability to read wind, as well as understanding how heat elevation, etc play a role in a long distance shot.


On 26 September 1874, Creedmoor witnessed a crowd of over five thousand people attending the first international shooting competition in America.
At 800 yards the Americans had a good lead. The Irish gained on them at 900 yards, and by the time they had finished shooting at 1000, were ahead of the Americans.
In the end, the match was determined by the very last shot by the Americans Shooting a bull's eye at 1000 yards to score 4, the Americans emerged the winners with 934 points to the Irish team's 931.

The above was not performed with unbelievably powerful scopes, highly customized rifles or advanced ammunition.

It was done with a Model 1874 Creedmoor Sharps Rifle.

Take away the unbelievably powerful scopes, highly customized rifles or advanced ammunition and put a Creedmoor in the hands of someone who grew up using the advanced stuff and pit them against an old school sharp shooter and what would happen?

Consider Howard Hill, the greatest archer of all time. There was nothing he could not do with a bow. And he used only a Long Bow with no sights. He used his instincts alone. He developed a human zen like ability by tapping into something that might have been lost to him if he depended on modern tech to do it for him.

In 1977 the odds that a league bowler could roll a 300 game were 325,000 to 1.

Yet every week at Kearny at least one 300 game is bowled and sometimes two a night.

It seems those odds have shrunk quite a bit.

How do we account for that?

I guess we must say that league bowlers today are vastly superior to league bowlers in 1977 by a long, long, long way.





Edited by nord (07/28/15 03:22 AM)
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

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#191853 - 07/28/15 08:35 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 700
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: nord
It was done with a Model 1874 Creedmoor Sharps Rifle.

They did use the technological advantage of rifling in the barrel and also used a top of the line long range rifle from that time period. They still used the best technology that they had available to them at that time. Should their skills be compared to the skills of shooters 70 years before them that would have used a much less advanced smoothbore musket? I still say that such comparisons of skills of people when the technology (and world) has changed drastically are meaningless.

I just remembered a video related to this discussion of ball technology. Here is a cool video of the former manager of technology at Ebonite throwing a shot with a wood ball on modern lanes. Yes, the lane was rather dry but it looks like it hits pretty good to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1w165bhkcA

This second video shows how dry the lane is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFswaBESzLo

Mark

_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#191854 - 07/28/15 11:41 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
OMG, it is Poway!

Now I know how to win at Poway, get a wooden ball! wink

Actually that is totally cool. I gotta show this video to my Poway friends, they will get a big laugh out of it. Thanks.

I don't think comparisons to the past are meaningless.

Because of limited tech humans were required to find that something special and magical in themselves that allowed them to perform better than their tech allowed.

A kind of Zen in the art of archery thing, the Force, call it what you will.

I think once modern tech learned to do everything for a person, that ancient skill was mostly lost.

That is why there are schools today that teach the ancient ways.

Working with the Japanese bow, unchanged for hundreds of years. Kendo with the same sword used for hundreds of years. Open iron sight competition with hundred year old rifles, etc.

When I was a kid I had a simple wooden slingshot and got so good I could hit anything with it. It had no sight, it was not a wrist rocket, I did not use ball bearings in it, I simply picked up some smooth stones and used them, like David against Goliath.

And remember, David was given all the modern tech of his age, sword, shield armor and refused it, instead he got his sling and picked up 5 smooth stones, not because he felt he would miss, but because he knew Goliath had 4 brothers!

One stone did it!

I want to be able to use just one stone...
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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#191855 - 07/28/15 05:19 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
mmalsed Online   content
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1328
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
You bring up a marksmanship contest from 1874 to prove a point about modern equipment.

They used the most advanced equipment they had, at that time. Thus, you've proven against your argument.


Sorry, Nord, you ARE implying that bowlers with a higher rev rate have to work less. That's not only what you implied, it's what you are SAYING.

Man up - stand up to your statements. If you don't mean them, don't say them.

You say that a high rev player can spray the ball all over and still strike.

Quote:
because they have very high revs they can miss pretty far and get away with it due to their high revs and the superior pin action it produces and the big bounce they can get off a walled house shot that a low rev bowler like myself cannot get away with.


What you're saying is that they can get away with doing less work to score more.


Here's my problem with this whole argument you're making:

You bowl with a VERY limited style (full roller, zero tilt, 90 degree angle) which has physical limitations. The reason why very few bowlers used it, even "back in the day", successfully, is that it has, physically, inherently, limitations. We've discussed this. We've shown it to you. You even know it, yourself.

I understand that you have physical limitations that limit your shot and your size of ball.

But what you're doing is griping against those (me included - I'd count as a high-rev player compared to you) who have the physical ability to do more and to adjust better.

Because you either are unable to or refuse to change your game, you put the blame on others. It's not you, it's the balls, it's the sloppy high-rev players, it's the lane conditions and the management.


Sunday, I took my wife, my stepdaughter and her boyfriend and we bowled on a totally burned up lane, lane 1. No complaints, we knew it was dry and messy. Heck, I had to completely flatten my hand to get my White Dot to cross the lane and get the 10. Completely. Pinky out, try to lead with it. Still had to aim right of target to get it there. shocked

Was it management that kept me below 200 for the two games I was able to bowl? No.
Was it the lanes? To a point - but more . . .
Was it my ball? Well, yes, I should have gone down a step or two, but I was having fun swinging the heck outta the ball.
Was it my knee? Well, yes. No stability on slide foot? Bad. smile
Was it ME? YES. I should have played a different ball, I should have backed down on rotation and stuck out my pinky (kills some of my rotation - dunno) and rolled a more outside line.

No excuses.

The equipment is what the equipment is.


"Back in the day" - the bleeder was way advanced and the cheater ball.
"Back in the day" - the balls had durometer ratings and a definite low end.
"Back in the day" - the EXACT same arguments were being made. Ooh, these balls are too soft; ooh, fingertip drilling; ooh this or ooh that.
_________________________
Avg: 200
Season High Gm: 276 / Lifetime: 290
Season High Ser: 714 / Lifetime: 759

16# IQ Tour Pearl/16# Crux/16# Marvel S/15#White Dot

"Gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight"

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