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#191756 - 07/14/15 12:25 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: 56bird]
56bird Offline
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At first, misses right barely make it. I really didn't have much miss room at all on this pattern. As the video goes on, you can see misses right start working WELL, this is the strong Zero Gravity cover having an effect on the lanes.

Around 0:17 and 1:27, I fail to get the ball outside and watch it labor.


Edited by 56bird (07/14/15 12:26 PM)
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#191761 - 07/15/15 02:31 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: 56bird]
nord Offline
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So in your video it looks like you could hit 10 and the ball could fade right as far as 7 and still come back, or you could miss right by 5 or 6 boards and still be fine.

Even though you say you have little miss room, in my eyes that is a ton of miss room!

I wish I could miss that much and be ok.

But I can't do that, I don't have your revs or rotation.

I have maybe one, or two boards of miss room inside where I can still strike and only one board right for the ball to still strike.

If I try to throw the ball away from the pocket, with almost any ball I have tried, it will not come back.


But tonight in league, in my attempt to understand different grits effects on the Kearny lanes, I took my Marvel S down to 320 grit wet sand.

I wanted it to have the same finish as my Judge urethane to see what it would do.

To recap, I have tried 4000, 1500, 500 and now 320 on the Marvel S.

Let me just say 320 was out of control!

The oil of Kearny was a non-issue for the Marvel S finally!

But this ball was simply uncontrollable for me.

After a few practice shots I tried to stand with right foot on 15 and roll right up 10.

The ball got amazingly far down the lane right up 10, about 3/4s of the way down, but the instant it hit the dry backend it turned left hard!

I could barely get the ball to break correctly to the pocket and hit flush. It was either crossing over or hitting light.

But this ball was never rolling out, it was breaking hard and hitting super hard.

If I hit flush then a strike was guaranteed, but I couldn't get the ball to hit accurately because it was jumping so strongly.

I finally moved left with right foot on 25 and rolled over 13 fading the ball out to 10 and back.

Finally I had a ball that allowed me to throw away from the pocket.

But this tip shot was also fraught with difficultly, because I had little margin for error, again light, or high, or perfect.

I figured the Marvel S at this grit would be DOA, but it was far from that, it was super strong and angular, like it was some out of control pearl.

So what did I learn?

For my style, a ball that jumps this strongly and quickly is too hard to control.

Now the question arises, can I polish this 320 grit ball and get it further down the lane and be able to play more direct and get the ball to roll into the pocket more easily and with greater control?

I felt as I threw it at 320 grit, if I had 3 mph more ball speed, 320 grit would have been perfect, but because my ball speed is slower, the ball could not get far enough down before it broke free.

And yes, I am trying to find a ball that will allow me to play my Poway urethane A game at Kearny.

I want to play the track, down and in.

Stand right a bit and roll over second arrow and have the ball smoothly get into a roll and hold line and hit flush and carry.

At Poway I can do this all day with the Judge and the only limitation is my own accuracy. If I roll it correctly the ball will strike and never stop striking no matter how dry it gets.

But I have only seen this effect once at Kearny, with the Marvel S at 4000 grit in game 3 after drying out the track by rolling over the same line all night.

Because of the way I roll the ball I don't have a lot of options. I can't move in and swing it, that will never work with any ball for me. I also can't move right and roll up 5, the ball will never hold line and will cross over.

I have to aim more direct and get the ball to hold line and then funnel in gently like you see in my Judge video.

Perhaps a strong ball like the Marvel S is a big mistake, perhaps what I really need is a strong pearl that will hold that line like it is on a string and then make the slight left turn needed to tuck tightly into the pocket.

Again, I am not sure what I need to compliment my game.
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#191762 - 07/15/15 05:34 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
Joe Bowler Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
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Nord, it's good you are experimenting with different grits and seeing the effects first hand. Besides adjusting up and down (have you tried 800 or 1000?), you can also try combinations with compound or lighter grits, for example 500/compound or 320/4000. The smoother finish step will help get the ball through the heads with more energy for the backend, while still having some teeth in heavier oil.

Btw, the reason too much surface can seem uncontrollable is that the ball is essentially ignoring the oil pattern. With too low of a grit, where the ball starts to hook and how much it hooks depends more on your speed and release, particularly your axis rotation. Small inconsistencies will seem much larger without the help of the oil guiding the ball further down the lane.
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#191764 - 07/15/15 09:23 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
56bird Offline
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Registered: 01/06/13
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Originally Posted By: nord


And yes, I am trying to find a ball that will allow me to play my Poway urethane A game at Kearny.

I want to play the track, down and in.

Stand right a bit and roll over second arrow and have the ball smoothly get into a roll and hold line and hit flush and carry.



I feel that this is the problem. Ask not where you want to play the lanes. Ask where the lanes want you to play.

With apparently more oil on a lower-friction surface with more than likely a lot less wear, the "track" isn't really the track. I know you're not going to bend it like Belmo (neither am I) but you have pretty much three choices... find the friction, create the friction (lane carving), or fail to score.

Also, Joe is spot-on with his advice on surface. Some of my best luck has been with surfaces like 500/2000, 1000/4000. The Thug Corrupt came out of box at 500/4000 and it's the most downlane motion I've ever seen... this out of a heavy oil ball. Crazy.
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#191767 - 07/15/15 08:56 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Joe Bowler]
nord Offline
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Quote:
Joe Said:
With too low of a grit, where the ball starts to hook and how much it hooks depends more on your speed and release, particularly your axis rotation. Small inconsistencies will seem much larger without the help of the oil guiding the ball further down the lane.


Joe,

This is exactly what I discovered last night. If I put more speed on the ball I got more revs and the ball was harder to control because it really broke loose. But if I slowed the ball down and relaxed my release, trying not to hit up on it, then the ball rotated slower and would push further down the lane and come off the spot more gently but still have plenty of punch. Light pocket hits were actually throwing messengers back off the left side wall, something I never get usually. But control was still difficult and my mistakes were getting amplified as you pointed out.

So the Marvel S is currently at 320 grit.
My thought was to restore it back to its stock out of box 3000 grit to see what the ball was intended to do out of the box.
Get a feel for that and then decide where to go.
But do you have a better suggestion for a combo grit to try?
Again, I have tried it at: 4000, 1500, 500 and 320.

The ultimate reaction I want is for the ball to go real straight, sliding with my typical 90 degree full roller rotation, getting perfect length until it reaches the backend, where it will then turn over and roll quickly to the pocket making only a 5 to 7 board move in the last 10 feet or so, but having tons of energy and really popping the pins hard.

I am not sure what finish can accomplish this or even if the Marvel S is a ball that can be made to do this. Perhaps a pearl of some type is really what I need.

56bird seems to think wanting a reaction like this is a Holy Grail, perfect, but unattainable.

But with all the modern tech available today and the fact that my game is an extremely simple old school game, I donít see why there is not a ball choice that can accomplish such a small desire in ball motion.

Most players I know want a lot out of a ball. They want to hook the lane.

I just want to get the ball to go straight and make a small, couple of boards move into the pocket.

Is this really too much to ask?
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#191768 - 07/15/15 09:19 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
champ Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2103
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Originally Posted By: nord
The ultimate reaction I want is for the ball to go real straight, sliding with my typical 90 degree full roller rotation, getting perfect length until it reaches the backend, where it will then turn over and roll quickly to the pocket making only a 5 to 7 board move in the last 10 feet or so, but having tons of energy and really popping the pins hard...I just want to get the ball to go straight and make a small, couple of boards move into the pocket.

Is this really too much to ask?


I've been in search of this reaction as well, and yes its very hard to try to achieve. What you're trying to get is predictability and smoothness with enough energy to carry well on today's oils. Its very hard to get all of that in one package. Here's the recipe that's gotten me the closest:

It probably needs to be a reactive ball. Old stuff doesn't grip modern oils, lane surfaces, and pattern lengths well enough to create the right angle to carry consistently.

You want low differentials and weak drillings. You don't want this thing to be too angular. That's what forces you to play an inside line to keep from leaving crazy splits.

Your need surface to get a dependable predictable motion. The higher the surface on reactive balls, the more likely you are to get over/under.

But, if you're using a reactive ball with a lot of surface, you're going to start losing energy quickly...so put polish over the surface. This will get you skid through the heads, but then a slow smooth read in the mids and backend.

That is the closest you're going to get to an old school roll with modern power.

Some balls are designer made for this sort of concept. Hammer's new Burgundy and their Arson Low Flare Solid are exactly what I described above. BUT (at least for my game) the covers are too strong, and they hook too much.

So I go weaker. Currently I'm using a Motiv Ascent Apex with a weak drilling and 800/polish. On a house shot, I can stay outside, throw it hard and straight, get a very smooth, never over/under reaction, that still has plenty of power at the pins.
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#191770 - 07/16/15 01:08 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: champ]
nord Offline
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Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Thanks Champ!

This is the kind of advice I have been looking for!

You said:

-Low Diffs.
-Like .30 and below?
-What about RG? High or low?
-When you say 800 polish, how polished? A light buff, or really serious polish so the pores are closed and the ball shines?
-How weak a drilling? Should the core be totally neutralized or just made half as strong as possible?
-Example: On my Marvel S the pin is only 2 1/4" from the palm center rather than 3 3/8" which is the strongest distance for Full Roller.
-Should my pin be even closer like 1 1/2"?
-I could put the pin in the palm and the core would be totally neutralized.

So would my Tropical Breeze be a good starting candidate to experiment with?
Unfortunately it has the strongest Full roller layout right now, but to counter this, the Breeze has an almost non-existent Diff (.013) and a very high RG (2.57)
If so what grit would be best to start with and how polished?

I have thought about the Hammer Burgundy and Hammer even told me in an email that this ball is the closest thing to a Urethane reaction that I will get out of a reactive ball.
But those who have used it said it is super strong and hooks a ton.

As to the Low Flare solid, my friend got one to use at Poway because his normal Arson was hooking to much.
Well the Low Flare Solid totally out hooks it and he has even more control problems with it!
He now uses the Low flare at Kearny to great effect.
That ball is strong!

So I am not sure either of these would work for me, they might be far too strong.
Yet I don't have the revs he does so if I had them drilled weak and then put a little polish on the cover perhaps they would tame down?

Or, maybe I should still try a particular finish on my Marvel S?
1000 polished?
800 polished?
500 polished?

Look forward to your reply.
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#191771 - 07/16/15 05:38 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
Joe Bowler Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: nord
In game two I switched to my Marvel S which I also have at 1500 grit, but with a light buff to add some shine, but not enough polish to close the pores. This ball also has a low flare layout.

I played the same line with this ball and I could see immediately that this ball sustained its rotation rate till the backend where it would turn over. It also hooked less and went straighter.

The Marvel S was hitting much harder, but it was still a tad wet for it.

But by game 3 it was hitting real hard and I got a hambone and had a nice third game.

No flat 10s or splits or 5 pins like I had with the Mastermind.

So what does this mean?

It means you were close, but maybe needed a little more surface.

Originally Posted By: nord
So tonight at Kearny I tried my Marvel S at 500 grit.

It definitely picked up immediately on the fresh in the first game.

It had never done this before.

I was hoping for a urethane like reaction, Hook-Set-Roll but was disappointed by the Slide-Hook-Keep Hooking/Rolling that it displayed.

After using The Judge at Poway last week, the reaction of the Marvel S was more difficult to control.

Now it was not a skid/flip, far from it.

It was actually a pretty smooth and easy transition from skid to hook.

But what this ball did do differently from The Judge, is it kept hooking left across the lane, while The Judge will hook a little, set and roll, not moving left anymore.

So the tendency of the Marvel S to keep moving left I found detrimental to accuracy and carry for my game.

So in order to prevent it from doing this, I squared up my angle and played more direct, this allowed the ball to not move left off target as much.

A high flush hit like this carried pretty darn good, but at 500 grit I found I had to be dead on to carry, slightly light hits, and I mean slightly light, left the flat 10 pin.

I think the ball probably was losing too much energy to friction so next week I will take it up to 1000 grit and see if it hits better with more forgiveness.

You were on the right track to find the answer. You knew 1500 was not quite enough surface, and discovered 500 grit was too much surface. The next step would have been to try 1000 grit. My suggestion would be dull first, and adjust further from there.

Originally Posted By: nord
Well, the main problem with me is I am pretty confused overall on ball reaction vs. lane surface.

At Kearny the oil is heavy, longer and wider than Poway.

The surface is slick even without oil since it is that Brunswick Anvilane.

I have a Marvel S I have been using each week trying to understand what type of surface is best for my game.

One week I tried it at 4000 grit and in game 1 and 2 it just could not read the lane, but in game 3 it read the lane perfectly and I had an all time high score. 161, 179 & 232.

Next week I took it down to 1500 grit with a light buff.

Results were not as good, ball seemed like it did not hit the pins hard till game 3 again. 160, 162 & 199.

Next week I took it down to 500 grit.
Ball read the lane immediately but I was leaving a lot of flat 10 pins on lighter hits. Also in game 3 my arm got so stiff I could not relax my hand and I had 5 straight opens because I simply could not relax my hand to let go of the ball. I massaged my arm between turns and finally could get the ball off my hand in the end and marked out. So I don't count the third game in this series as the ball's fault.
173, 183 & 149.

So what I have seen, is on Kearny with the Marvel S at higher grits, the ball gets better as the set continues and I can dry up a line for myself, but it take two games to get the lane ready to strike in the 3rd game.

At 500 grit I could get good hits right off the bat, but I had to be pretty dead on to carry, light hits were weak and left the flat 10.

I could not throw the ball away from the pocket and expect it to come back and hit hard, it would not do. I had to square up and go right at the pocket.

So again I am confused. I don't feel I have a ball yet that will hit hard at Kearny right out of the gate.

No need to be confused. You were on the right track. This was a good summary of your results so far. Try 1000 grit! Continue to reassess.

Originally Posted By: nord
But tonight in league, in my attempt to understand different grits effects on the Kearny lanes, I took my Marvel S down to 320 grit wet sand.

I wanted it to have the same finish as my Judge urethane to see what it would do.

To recap, I have tried 4000, 1500, 500 and now 320 on the Marvel S.

Let me just say 320 was out of control!

The oil of Kearny was a non-issue for the Marvel S finally!

But this ball was simply uncontrollable for me.

After a few practice shots I tried to stand with right foot on 15 and roll right up 10.

The ball got amazingly far down the lane right up 10, about 3/4s of the way down, but the instant it hit the dry backend it turned left hard!

I could barely get the ball to break correctly to the pocket and hit flush. It was either crossing over or hitting light.

But this ball was never rolling out, it was breaking hard and hitting super hard.

If I hit flush then a strike was guaranteed, but I couldn't get the ball to hit accurately because it was jumping so strongly.

I finally moved left with right foot on 25 and rolled over 13 fading the ball out to 10 and back.

Finally I had a ball that allowed me to throw away from the pocket.

But this tip shot was also fraught with difficultly, because I had little margin for error, again light, or high, or perfect.

I figured the Marvel S at this grit would be DOA, but it was far from that, it was super strong and angular, like it was some out of control pearl.

So what did I learn?

For my style, a ball that jumps this strongly and quickly is too hard to control.

Now the question arises, can I polish this 320 grit ball and get it further down the lane and be able to play more direct and get the ball to roll into the pocket more easily and with greater control?

I felt as I threw it at 320 grit, if I had 3 mph more ball speed, 320 grit would have been perfect, but because my ball speed is slower, the ball could not get far enough down before it broke free.

And yes, I am trying to find a ball that will allow me to play my Poway urethane A game at Kearny.

I want to play the track, down and in.

Stand right a bit and roll over second arrow and have the ball smoothly get into a roll and hold line and hit flush and carry.

At Poway I can do this all day with the Judge and the only limitation is my own accuracy. If I roll it correctly the ball will strike and never stop striking no matter how dry it gets.

But I have only seen this effect once at Kearny, with the Marvel S at 4000 grit in game 3 after drying out the track by rolling over the same line all night.

Because of the way I roll the ball I don't have a lot of options. I can't move in and swing it, that will never work with any ball for me. I also can't move right and roll up 5, the ball will never hold line and will cross over.

I have to aim more direct and get the ball to hold line and then funnel in gently like you see in my Judge video.

Perhaps a strong ball like the Marvel S is a big mistake, perhaps what I really need is a strong pearl that will hold that line like it is on a string and then make the slight left turn needed to tuck tightly into the pocket.

Again, I am not sure what I need to compliment my game.

You already knew 500 grit was too much surface. Trying 320 was an interesting experiment that only confirmed your previous results. Time to get back on track and try 1000 grit! Knowing you had your best game at 4000, but it took a few games to develop enough friction, I would speculate your optimum combination may be 800 to 1000 finished with 4000 or compound. That might give you the best, most sustainable reaction from the start. But, you won't know until you try. Note that one week's scores may not be enough to make a final assessment. Keep narrowing down till you find the optimum combination of length and backend. There is little point in our guessing...unless you are offering a prize for best guess?... smile

You can always buy a new ball. But, you will likely have to go through the same process to find the best surface to match the lanes and your game. It's a worthwhile effort and a valuable skill in the long run to be able to effectively adjust the surface on your equipment. This is learning to fish instead of waiting to be handed a fish.

The following chart may be helpful for comparing the effect of different grits:
360 - 40 microns
500 - 30 microns
800 - 22 microns
1000 - 18 microns
1500 - 12 microns
2000 - 9 microns
3000 - 5 microns
4000 - 3 microns
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#191772 - 07/16/15 09:22 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
56bird Offline
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Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
Originally Posted By: nord

56bird seems to think wanting a reaction like this is a Holy Grail, perfect, but unattainable.


I don't think I said it was perfect OR unattainable. I *think* I said that friction is your friend and you need to either find it or generate it.

I'm pretty sure you're trying to find a ball that will enable you to play the lanes at Kearney where they are not especially playable for your release specs, lacking sufficient friction in that zone until the lanes have broken down later on in the series.

Yes I think this is tilting at windmills but it's your time and money.

Trying to get a "urethane type reaction" out of a reactive... there are problems with this as the coverstock on a reactive is much more porous and that's the part that touches the lane... the thought "control layout needed" comes to mind but I don't know how that fits in with the full roller layouts.

Good luck.
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#191773 - 07/16/15 09:24 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
SteveH Offline
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Registered: 12/09/12
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Excellent analysis.

On the subject of pads. With Abralon, how many times do you use the pad before it's done? Different with resurfacing than just scuffing I suppose. The 2000 and up seem to be fine, but the 360/500 seem to take a beating.
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