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#191639 - 06/21/15 10:35 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 700
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: nord
I would like to see house shots that are standardized.

I bowl at a center that is usually viewed as a lower scoring center compared to others where I live. While I think a level playing field would be a great idea, I just think it is logistically impossible. I'm pretty sure its been brought up here before, but there are too many different lane surfaces of too many different ages and centers with lane topography totally out of whack from lane to lane in the same center. Throw in climate on top of that and a standardized pattern can play differently even on adjacent lanes in the same center. Go to two different centers with totally different surfaces (think brand new Anvilane vs. wood desperately needing to be resurfaced), lay down the same pattern, and the difference would be extreme. We've seen the difference on the Summer Swing when they go from the Anvilane during qualifying to the HPL9000 at the arena setting. Also, this would require that the centers have lane machines that can lay down this pattern. I wish it wasn't the case, but to me its just not possible.

I do agree with SteveH, they can at least standardize the ratio of oil to something that is reasonable for most centers to instead of the "at least 3 units per board" rule. This would give centers the flexibility to adjust depending on their lane surfaces and would limit how walled a shot can be. Then, it would have to be monitored rigorously to ensure compliance.

Mark
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#191640 - 06/21/15 10:52 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
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Registered: 10/27/11
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So if a standardized lane surface and oil pattern will not be created and demanded by the USBC for all houses, then what can we as players do with our balls to make sure we are not getting an unfair advantage on the easy lane conditions?

In other words, if we want to assure ourselves that we are using skill to score high on easy shots, we still have the ability to use a ball that will not take advantage of the easy shot and will make it hard like a sport shot.

How can we ball down to make the shot hard as it should be?

What are your thoughts?
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High Series: 621
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#191642 - 06/22/15 12:40 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
SteveH Offline
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Registered: 12/09/12
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I believe the big problem is still that league bowlers think they're part of "The sport", as opposed to organized games. Competitive bowling can mean many things, and League bowling is considered the entry level. The biggest problem I see is that in most areas, but not all, there's no other place for so-called good bowlers to bowl and compete.

The sport leagues were originally designed to deal with this, but low demand and turnout, not to mention the built-in sandbagging nature of it all, slammed the concept. The vast majority of league bowlers are amateurs out to have a good time, mixed and handicap leagues dominate. Even many men's leagues are just a THS, with little demand for a tougher shot.

Behind the scenes there are other motives behind the push by a very tiny minority of bowlers for tougher shots and standards. $$$ is what it is. Many are miffed they can't make much money nowadays, or that there's more money to be had in leagues than the PBA. Some even go as far as having a sport shot laid down for a standard league, and just not certifying it as a sport league. The USBC caught up to that trick this year.

In bowling, it's estimated that 90% to 95% of bowlers are out to have a good time, and compete a little at the low level. Probably 5% of league bowlers really want a super-competitive environment in leagues. The real-world numbers never added up to equipment and lane conditions causing bowlers to quit en masse. The decline in league bowlers definitely corresponded to the largest generation ever having families, starting careers, and the two-income household. Not to mention cable TV, many other sports at the HS level, and the tremendous changes in our culture over the last 40 years. Look at the whining that ensued over the conditions at the USBC Open this year in Texas.

If the numbers were there, everyone would know it. As it is today, a ton of people complaining about the days of old and bowling being ruined, weren't even born yet before resin came out. I found a couple of pros in that category interestingly enough.

Now I agree that some things need to be tightened up. Wholesale changes and radical changes will not occur. A lot of that is due to the proprietors, a lot is due to bowlers themselves. But look at the annual Plastic Ball Tournament, and look at the scores. A lot of today's pros would be great no matter the conditions, and many have proven that long ago. It's similar to golfers that don't hit very far, complaining about the length of courses due to equipment changes. Golf had a similar problem with Jack long ago, he hit it too far. As yesterday showed, putts count.
_________________________
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Roto Grip Hustle Ink
Storm Byte
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#191644 - 06/22/15 01:12 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
mmalsed Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 1328
A/S/L: 43/M/Riverside, CA
Okay, I've been reading this while out at a conference and haven't responded. But here are a few thoughts.

A: I'm a fairly high average for my house - I'm 204 right now with my knee killing me (I'm doing a single-step approach for now) but have been as high as 215 and am probably in the top 10 on Friday nights, as a whole.

I don't know where y'all are getting the whole "averaging 250" kinda crap. . . maybe your houses have bumpers pointing people to the pocket. . . but every house I've bowled in here in SoCal, yeah, I can pull out a 600 series, but I have to work at it, even with fairly modern equipment.

If you think that it isn't work, you're wrong. If you think it doesn't take work and accuracy, you're wrong.

Yes, the crankers can open up a lane. Yes, we have a bit of a pocket - but then I had a few boards of a pocket back in 1982 when I had a 2 board hook using a Black Beauty. I had even more when I used a bleeder.

And, btw, I started bowling in Laurel Lanes, Port Angeles back in 1982 and averaged 190. I've bowled in the rubber/plastic days, the early days of reactive resin, etc.

B: This argument has been going on since the 80s. The bleeders, the weepers, the soft rubber, this, that. . . the automatic oiling machines - oh my, the controversy when THEY came out. . . but we wouldn't consider tossing them, would we? Synthetic lanes? OH MY . . . I LOVE wood and hated bowling on the synthetic lane until I learned how they worked - now I LOVE the consistency. Wood? Check the weather, where the AC vents are, what the humidity is. . . hop three times on your right foot and toss some salt over your shoulder. How old are they? How long will the center be down while they resurface them, and how much dust will there be on EVERYTHING when they reopen.

C: People think that Sports Shots have a lower popularity because they're hard. That's PART of it. If it were all it were, then our PBA league would be much lower attended (think there's 10 teams right now and growing) - that's harder. Been there, done that.

Why do I not bowl a sport shot? Because my inlaws, my wife and I bowl to relax on a Friday evening. Nearly everyone on the league (15 teams right now) bowls to have fun. Yes, we're extremely competitive, but we don't bowl to WORK (which is pretty much the definition of sport shot) but to have fun. Sport shots are more work. . .

Another reason why I don't like sport shots - they don't penalize straight-shot-hurlers. A THS doesn't either, but at least I don't have to work my ass off to KEEP UP with a hurler . . . on a THS, I can beat a hurler, who isn't working; on a sport shot, I have to work my ass off to beat a hurler who isn't. That's discouraging. . .

Last point D: You want a consistent THS across the board? Not gonna happen:


  • Lane Machines - they're not consistent and are by different mfg's and at different ages and different calibrations and different maintenance levels.
  • Lanes - how old? wood? synthetic? Which type? Each is going to act differently.
  • Region - you want a THS from Phoenix, AZ to Allentown PA? Desert to lush green? Really?
  • Ownership - you know that the centers aren't owned by USBC, right? They have their own association and do NOT want to be controlled by USBC or PBA except for limited instances like tourneys. Ours actively discourages my league from going sanctioned. . . because of the extra work it entails.
  • Definition - what IS a THS? What you have obviously differs from what I have. Evidently your high-average bowlers don't have to be accurate to hit 250s - I have about 2 board leeway at the arrows (MAX) to make it to the pocket - and then I have to make sure I enter the pocket at the right depth or I leave a ton of corner pins. Must be different at your center. . .

I could go on.



OLD OLD argument and, while not without merit, dismisses the technology advances on the other side of the equation.

Look at how much that Joe Bowler has to WORK to keep up with lane conditions and different houses. I am in AWE of what he does and how much knowledge he has regarding his equipment.

Look at Sk8 - high average but not a cranker. How much work he does.
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#191645 - 06/22/15 04:48 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2103
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Who cares what the scoring ceiling is? Even if its a carry contest, it takes a considerable amount of skill to keep up with the leaders in those conditions. You have to be watching rapid transition, making the right adjustments, understand an arsenal of equipment, and be mentally strong enough to not choke when the numbers are big.

Shooting big scores when conditions are soft is a SKILL. Just like staying in play and making spares when conditions are brutal is a skill.

I love that modern bowling has given us such a variety. We've got all sorts of pattern lengths, and pattern volumes that require us to play different zones, with different angles, utilizing different equipment. In my opinion that makes it fun and incredibly challenging.
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#191646 - 06/22/15 06:23 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: mmalsed]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
In response to mmalsed:

At Kearny Mesa bowl they lay down a longer heavier house shot that is designed to cater to the high rev players with top of the line equipment.

When us strokers go there we are lucky to get our ball to even read the lane on the fresh, even if we play first arrow which is almost as wet as the middle of the lane.

But the high rev modern style bowlers dominate because their style of play is designed specifically for this house shot.

And when I say dominate, I mean it.

Examples from our league:

High Team Scratch game: 961
High scratch game: 300
High Team handicap series: 2735
High handicap game: 300
High Team handicap series: 3005
High handicap team game: 1030

and it goes on.

Last week in league two 300 games were bowled.

We played this team a couple of weeks ago and they were amazing men, tremendous hook and spin.

Our team was low rev strokers and of course I am a very low rev full roller.

I used a plastic ball that night and we took 3 points from them because our handicaps were high and we bowled a little above average.

But these guys are monsters, and most of the bowlers are like this in our league, real high rev power players that score super high on this house shot geared for them.

Maybe it is hard to do, but they make it look pretty easy when they rev it to the right and bounce it off first arrow and back to strike.

Oh, and they can miss 5 boards right and still strike, while if I miss even half a board right I will get a washout.

So this House Shot, their High Tech balls and their modern high rev game all equal easy strikes and a ton of miss room.

But even when I use reactive, I have to be dead on, or i will get punished.


Edited by nord (06/22/15 07:38 PM)
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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#191648 - 06/22/15 10:39 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 700
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: nord
Maybe it is hard to do, but they make it look pretty easy when they rev it to the right and bounce it off first arrow and back to strike.

Are they at the five board at the arrows or is there ball at the 5 board at the breakpoint? I'm curious because anyone I consider to be a high rev player is usually playing nowhere near the 5 board at the arrows with high end equipment.

Originally Posted By: nord
When us strokers go there we are lucky to get our ball to even read the lane on the fresh, even if we play first arrow which is almost as wet as the middle of the lane.

Oh, and they can miss 5 boards right and still strike, while if I miss even half a board right I will get a washout.

So this House Shot, their High Tech balls and their modern high rev game all equal easy strikes and a ton of miss room.

I know you're speaking from your experience on the other coast and I can't see what's happening there, but I'm a bit confused here. I find that the second and third sentence contradicts what you said in the first sentence. If the first arrow was anywhere nearly as wet as the middle of the lane, that's the opposite of a a walled-up easy house shot and I have a very hard time understanding how they would have that much area on that shot. Easy shots generally are a flood from around 10-10 with a desert from around 10 to the gutter. Are you sure that with your lower ball speed that the ball isn't using all its energy early when you try to play 1st arrow?

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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#191650 - 06/22/15 11:21 PM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Murdershaw]
Dylan585 Offline
2X Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 227
A/S/L: 20/m/ny
I don't think its the ball, in fact I think in a lot of cases the ball hurts power players. Everyone tries to crank the ball and hook the whole lane when they don't need to and it hurts I play straight up and in not because I have to but because I choose to. I use the judge and my supernatural a lot and can beat any one throwing super aggressive balls. With that being said, with some of todays modern sport shots you are basically required to throw strong resin or else it will just skid. So I do believe that resin balls have a place in our game
_________________________
2 handed stats:

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Bag: storm supernatural, Genesis the judge, motiv paranoia, motiv Forza gt, motiv Arctic sniper

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#191651 - 06/23/15 01:51 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
mkirchie,

Just subbed tonight and again we had a high rev player.

He did the same thing as all the rest.

He got in, cranked it out to first arrow, which is his break point, and watched the ball hook like crazy and smash the pocket.

He did this all night, like 5 to 8 in a row per game.

Anyone with a ton of hand can get these lanes to do this and this is exactly how they were designed to play and who they were designed for.

Again the oil pattern is for the high rev, hi tech, modern bowler.

Strokers need not apply.

I took my Master Mind and my Marvel S and played them up second arrow and when they broke to the pocket they were leaving lots of pocket splits and flat 10s and weak 7s.

With reactive tonight I bowled a 146 and a 132.

Sad.

In the third game I switched to my Glitter and Gold plastic ball, moved my right foot to first dot and rolled nice and easy and straighter right over second arrow direct to the pocket.

Started with a hambone and then spares and another strike but got a spit in the 10th otherwise I would have been at 200.

Closed with a 180.

This is the only way I can play this flood, down and in, straight as an arrow to the pocket.

If my aim is on then I can do well and the plastic ball hits very hard.

The reactive stuff tonight was just dying out or not gripping and bouncing off.

But the shots looked real good, they hooked and rolled nicely and I liked them, but they were not hitting hard at all and finally after two games of frustration I dumped the reactive stuff for plastic.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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#191652 - 06/23/15 03:54 AM Re: Is the modern bowling ball ruining our sport? [Re: Dylan585]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 702
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Dylan585,

Still waiting on a report on "The Judge".

Please let us know what your thoughts are on it and how it has been working for you.

Any videos yet?
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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