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#190673 - 03/02/15 01:23 AM Views on sandbagging?
Odie8654 Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 02/01/15
Posts: 34
A/S/L: 55/F/California
I always hear about it. Have actually witnessed it with a couple of bowlers as well. But what are your views, and why? I've heard it even stated that it is used as a strategy by some teams! Isn't cheating cheating, no matter what name you put on it?

Here's mine:

I think it's cheating truthfully. I feel any sport is about doing the best you can in that sport. Not doing good intentionally to lower you averages so that when the time is right you amazingly can bowl those big games again and now with that HUGE handicap win! The handicap is to even things out between the really good Bowlers, us average bowlers, and the not so good (yet) bowlers! It allows for ALL levels to bowl at a somewhat even kilter, not to allow you to cheat just so you can claim you won with your amazing bowling! If you were that amazing you shouldn't have had to stack the deck in your favor....right? Seriously, People that intentionally do bad, wow, it's a game people, do you teach your children to cheat too? How about those taxes, or the waitresses tips, you cheat them too? People get away with it all to frequently and I wish they could suspend the people a few games, or penalize them in some way for it. I know a gal that is notorious for it, the alley knows she does it too, but because when she wins tourni's here and there by throwing out these magically amazing games it also brings attention to the bowling alley she's part ofnothing is done about it!!! I'm sorry, where do we draw the line? How do you look at yourself in the mirror?

Ok, ok, obviously I dislike it, but it's my opinion! I try my hardest doing well and my hardest even when I suck!!! Ugh!!! I respect myself and the sport too much to abuse the privilege of earning my average, good or bad!! And I feel good about earning that average, it takes me hard honest work!!

So what's your views? There aren't any real rules against it are there? It's technically supposed to be hard to prove......yea ok.........lol. Don't tear my head off, please I'm really curious is all about what others think of sandbagging and why you feel that way. I look forward to hearing the whys and why nots Gang!

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#190678 - 03/02/15 06:27 AM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: Odie8654]
SteveH Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 766
A/S/L: 62/M/Burlington VT
Yes it's a real thing. Not so much for league competition, but some use it to lower their averages for tournaments, giving them an advantage. Some will join THS leagues just to lower their averages, and could care less about leagues or teams. There are some that play as good as they have to without having huge scores. I've seen people dump a spare here or there because they had already won.

Mostly it's tournaments that the sandbagging hurts. Someone came up with a method to get rid of sandbagging by using a bowler's tournament average, not their league average. Think of the 190 league bowler that consistently averages 215 in tournaments. Using the tournament average, he can't hide.
_________________________
Current League average 178

High League game: 290
High League Series: 768
High Tournament Series 723
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#190683 - 03/02/15 11:32 AM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: Odie8654]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2127
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
My honest opinion:

Handicap tournaments aren't worth entering. You're going to get your money taken by a cheater. If you want to compete in a fair environment, enter scratch tournaments. Until you're a 225 bowler, you will lose a lot of money, but that's the best way to learn.

Handicap leagues are for practicing, and having a fun night out. Winning or losing doesn't matter whatsoever. In most leagues, the payout difference between 1st and 20th is not that much. I don't worry about it. My goal in any league is to get the high game/series/average award.

So for me, I could care less about sandbagging. I doesn't effect me in the slightest. I'm not even remotely interested in who beat me with handicap, and if they did so by cheating. Handicap just doesn't matter to me.

I want the highest game possible every game, and that's all I'm really interested in. Of course I want my team mates to bowl well, but that's because they're my friends and I want to see them succeed, not because I want to win points on the night in a handicap league.
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Career Highs: 300/759

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#190688 - 03/02/15 01:34 PM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: Odie8654]
SteveH Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 766
A/S/L: 62/M/Burlington VT
Definitely correct about the league payouts Champ, at least in the leagues I bowl in. Your attitude reflects your own goals, and some don't share that level of competitive ethics.

I enter a couple of handicapped tournaments only for the experience, and the fun of it. I rarely make it past the second or third round. At some point I hope that changes. Hardly any scratch tourneys around here.
_________________________
Current League average 178

High League game: 290
High League Series: 768
High Tournament Series 723
Arsenal so far: [all 15#]
Roto Grip Hustle Ink
Storm Byte
Storm Hy Road Pearl
Storm Ride
Roto-Grip Disturbed
Storm Lucid
Roto-Grip Crown

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#190689 - 03/02/15 01:43 PM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: champ]
wronghander Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 554
A/S/L: 33/M/NH
Originally Posted By: champ
My honest opinion:

Handicap tournaments aren't worth entering. You're going to get your money taken by a cheater. If you want to compete in a fair environment, enter scratch tournaments. Until you're a 225 bowler, you will lose a lot of money, but that's the best way to learn.

I disagree. Handicap tournaments are a great way to get started as opposed to getting your clock cleaned in a scratch event. It gives the opportunity to adjust to moving pairs and also bowling in different houses. I think the cheater aspect is overblown. Maybe there are a couple but league and tournament bowling are two different animals, and someone coming in with a lot of handicap doesn't necessarily mean that they will perform well in the tournament.

Another thing handicap tournaments can do is give experience in match play. Getting through qualifying is much more attainable in handicap events than in scratch. Also, a newer bowler who is entering their current average that's going to put the time in to practice is only going to have their average go up. But it might take cashing, reaching the finals or bowling 21 games before they get re-rated (depending on what the rules of the tournament are). I started bowling handicap tournaments when I was a 180 bowler and after struggling at first and then sneaking into match play a few times, I was finally able to pull through and win.

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country but the handicap tournaments around here do attract a lot of the top local bowlers and even some pros. In fact last weekend I got to bowl in a tournament with former PBA titlist John Gant.
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High Game: 300 (5)
High Series: 803

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#190690 - 03/02/15 02:11 PM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: wronghander]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2127
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Originally Posted By: wronghander
I disagree. Handicap tournaments are a great way to get started ...It gives the opportunity to adjust to moving pairs and also bowling in different houses...Another thing handicap tournaments can do is give experience in match play.


Touche. These are all very good points, and all good reasons for entering handicap tournaments.

I'll re-phrase my stance.

Handicap tournaments are a great learning experience, but they're not a place to seek money fairly. You should consider the entry fee the cost of your learning experience, and any money you do win back should be considered gravy.
_________________________
Career Highs: 300/759

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#190691 - 03/02/15 02:42 PM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: Odie8654]
SteveH Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 766
A/S/L: 62/M/Burlington VT
Better put. Ours are fairly cheap affairs, so it's more of a social thing for some, a friendly competition for others. Competing at the scratch level is a good experience, but unless you're at least a steady 200+ bowler, expect nothing but the experience.

I don't even get an invite to our local March Madness handicap tourney, so I have to settle for the open version.
_________________________
Current League average 178

High League game: 290
High League Series: 768
High Tournament Series 723
Arsenal so far: [all 15#]
Roto Grip Hustle Ink
Storm Byte
Storm Hy Road Pearl
Storm Ride
Roto-Grip Disturbed
Storm Lucid
Roto-Grip Crown

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#190693 - 03/02/15 04:37 PM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: Odie8654]
BowlerBill Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 09/08/13
Posts: 428
A/S/L: 55/m/Ca
I'm with you. I strive to do the best I can every time I bowl. I'm not in favor of lowering average to gain more handicap. I currently bowl with 3 guys who work to keep their average low.

One suggested last week that I tank the last two weeks so I could go into sweepstakes with a few more pins. I told him there were 2 prizes I wanted to try to get (scratch high game and high series). No one has thrown a 300 game and the high series is just over 800. If I get some luck and some carry I might get one of these awards. No way I'm laying down.
_________________________
Mission X, Shatter, Rhino Pro, Virtual Gravity, Disorder, White Dot, Critical
HG 300 (sanctioned),

HS 805 (250, 300, 255) (non-sanctioned)
746 (267, 257, 222) (sanctioned)

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#190701 - 03/02/15 08:09 PM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: Odie8654]
SteveH Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 766
A/S/L: 62/M/Burlington VT
I just keep trying to get better, and ignore the peripheral stuff. My VL average is now 190, and it includes a variety of scores for sure. I know I should be a solid 200 plus bowler, but I do stupid things. A 570 series is hard for me due to the various inconsistencies in my game. I thought I'd be a 190 bowler a couple of years ago, so more practice is needed.

I'm one of those bowlers that is erratic as heck in a tournament. 230/160/210/whatever. I'd love to just bowl my best and throw 230's, but so does everyone else.
_________________________
Current League average 178

High League game: 290
High League Series: 768
High Tournament Series 723
Arsenal so far: [all 15#]
Roto Grip Hustle Ink
Storm Byte
Storm Hy Road Pearl
Storm Ride
Roto-Grip Disturbed
Storm Lucid
Roto-Grip Crown

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#190705 - 03/02/15 09:26 PM Re: Views on sandbagging? [Re: Odie8654]
goobee Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 543
A/S/L: 58/M/Sunny California
You can tell who the sandbaggers are pretty easily. The guys who bowl 170 - 190 during league and then shoot the lights out afterwards during pot games. Then during pot games, they know the routine. Score just enough to lose a few dollars and then up the pot buy in. Just as bad as pool sharks.
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14lbs Ebonite Gamebreaker 2
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Secondary

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