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#190068 - 01/24/15 10:53 PM Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag
Max Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 8
A/S/L: 64 Male Colorado
Hi guys , I'm on a couple of senior leagues and have been on "Dude & Divas" and Great 8 leagues at a Brunswick XL center in Colorado.
3 weeks ago we, myself, my wife and sister in law and another female friend started another league, "Friday Nite Fun". It's a sanctioned money league. The girls did not want to join this league because there are a lot of "heavy hitters" as I call them with 200+ averages. My average is about 165ish and the girls is only about 120 + or -.
I told them it would be fun and with the handicaps we may be competetive against some teams and we'll still have fun.
They were using 220 as the the equitable basis average and handicapping at 90%.
We won 1 game the first week, 2 games and total pins the 2nd week, we won one game by 0ne pin.
On the 3rd week, 10 minutes before we were to start practice they came over the loud speaker and asked for all team captains to come to the pool room. I asked my sister in law to go and see what they wanted because I don't hear well in noisy places in large crowds (18 teams) and I obviously underestimated the importance.
They said they wanted to make things fair for every one and there were much better bowlers this year than last year. Many people were blind sided by this but I'm sure the league coordinator and her son , both employees of the center and league bowlers with a 225+ average, and the league president and secretary treasurer (brothers on same team) and many other heavy hitters knew what was going to come down at this meeting. My SIL caled me and I went in and they said the change was approved and the rest of the 19 week league would be based on a 200 average @ 90% even though there had been more than 25 200+ games bowled in 3 weeks, some as high as 248.
The previous week the highest scratch averaging team (league coordinator's son) lost all games and total pin count. The president and secretary treasurer's team also lost all games and total pin count.
So, right before we start the 3rd week they announce this change,
of course "TO MAKE THINGS FAIR FOR EVERY ONE".
Is this normal or fair or even legal to change the rules in the middle of the game?
We've only played against 3 teams and even though we lost all to the team last night , we like every one we have met so far and like the crowd but it would be nice and more fun if we could make the games interesting.
What do you guys think?
Middle of league rule change
Multiple choices allowed


Votes accepted starting: 01/24/15 10:52 PM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

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#190069 - 01/25/15 12:41 AM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: Max]
FuriousSam Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 299
A/S/L: 32/M/Lodi, NJ
Out of all the leagues I bowled in, we never changed the handicap or team cap midseason. With that being said, I've been to meetings where teams have to vote on league issues and I'm guessing that is legal? Losing 72 pins handicap is a pretty big deal though if you were only winning 1 pin games.

-- Sam
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#190073 - 01/25/15 11:05 AM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: Max]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1216
A/S/L: 63/M /Georgia
I had this happen in our league before.

USBC RULE 122 states can be changed with a 100% of team captains favoring the change. If one team is not in favor of the change then the rule cannot be changed. Rule is below.

Rules shall be adopted at a meeting prior to the start of the league schedule by the board of directors,
unless the league elects to have its rules adopted by the membership. After the league schedule
begins, a change in the league rules and approved prize list can be made only with the written consent
of every team captain or designated representative


Edited by BOSStull (01/25/15 11:25 AM)

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#190076 - 01/25/15 05:08 PM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: BOSStull]
Max Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 8
A/S/L: 64 Male Colorado
Originally Posted By: BOSStull
I had this happen in our league before.

USBC RULE 122 states can be changed with a 100% of team captains favoring the change. If one team is not in favor of the change then the rule cannot be changed. Rule is below.

Rules shall be adopted at a meeting prior to the start of the league schedule by the board of directors,
unless the league elects to have its rules adopted by the membership. After the league schedule
begins, a change in the league rules and approved prize list can be made only with the written consent
of every team captain or designated representative


Thank you for this. I found it in the rulebook (online, wish I had it in writing) but I guess the only possibility of them being legal would be changing the league average basis is not changing the rules.
It seems odd that the centers "league coordinator, the president and the secretary treasurer of the league and many of the very experienced captains or players would even try this. They did not even get a unanimous vote by show of hands much less a unanimous vote in writing.

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#190097 - 01/26/15 03:58 PM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: Max]
6_ball_man Offline
2X Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 871
A/S/L: 60/m/downtown churchville
Originally Posted By: Max

So, right before we start the 3rd week they announce this change,
of course "TO MAKE THINGS FAIR FOR EVERY ONE".


This, of course, does NOT make things "fair for everyone." It gives the heavies a HUGE advantage.

Why? Math.

at a 220 & 90% basis the heavy at 222 gets no sticks and the 140 bowler gets 72 pins. Lets say they both bowl their average. The 222 guy has 222 and the 140 guy has 212. As it is, the heavy has a 10 pin advantage.

At 200, that same 140 bowler gets 54 pins. 140+54=194, so the jr loses by 28 pins.

Now granted, giving the big pile of sticks looks tough at the outset, but when you figure in that the high averager also is more likely to pick a crucial spare than the handicapper, it still seems obvious to me that the better bowler ALWAYS has an advantage.

personal anecdote: last week in the doubles league, my buddy and I were giving up 99 sticks to the other team. We won 6/8 and lost the one we did (by 5) because we BOTH whiffed a 10pin along the way. Earlier this year, those 2 each shot 450 against us and we had NO CHANCE to win....that's the way it goes sometimes.

ALSO: the handicap system, while it draws weaker players to the field with an illusion of fairness, it really does favor folks on the improve, because they are likely to beat their sheet average. A true 120 or 130 bowler may get lucky on occasion, but not in the long run.

just MHO - I COULD be wrong



Edited by 6_ball_man (01/26/15 03:59 PM)
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#190107 - 01/26/15 07:31 PM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: Max]
SteveH Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 770
A/S/L: 62/M/Burlington VT
Yeah, that 90% of 200 is pretty awful. I'm glad we have both a league, and a proprietor, that is more honest than that. In fact, he pushed us for 100% or greater, showing the higher handicappers how this is fairer. But as in most leagues, they didn't believe it.

Max, you should update this thread as to how your season progresses, could be a good follow.
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#190111 - 01/26/15 10:14 PM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: Max]
Max Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 8
A/S/L: 64 Male Colorado
I hope someone makes them realize this is not right and they change it back to the 220 which still is not as high as the top bowler thus far after 3 weeks, but closer.
I bowled on my senior league this morning and the league coordinator, who is on the other league , gave me my coupons for 9 free games of practice bowling, 3 for my 225 game, 3 for 600 series, and 3 for 50 pins over average. How can I be a trouble maker here?
On top of that , 2 more friendly employees, (young in their 20's) male and female, from the highest scratch Fri night team (but still losing) are talking with me, giving me pointers, checking out my new plastic spare ball (that does'nt like me), he also works in a Pro Shop , and they just don't seem like they are trying to screw any one.
Is it possible that they don't know that bringing it down to a 200 Avg basis is going to make it so lop sided; or who do you think is more responsible for this change,
the center employees who are also bowlers on the league or the league officers?
In other words, does the league officers tell the center what they want to do or is it vice versa? It does seem odd that neither seemed to know that changing the rules or handicap cap was likely not legal after the league started.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge with me guys and I will definitely keep you posted if this flies or if they call another meeting before we bowl Fri.

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#190117 - 01/27/15 10:56 AM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: Max]
FuriousSam Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 299
A/S/L: 32/M/Lodi, NJ
Do you know what the teams' entering averages are? It could be these 225's are losing to the 200/210's by a few pins too and started crying about it. We have quite a few people who cries about shooting 670's instead of 750's because they are the "best" bowlers on this planet and it's heresy when they have to adjust.

-- Sam
_________________________
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Motiv Forza
Motiv Venom Shock
White Dot

BowlSK

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#190125 - 01/27/15 06:42 PM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: Max]
MDLee3 Offline
Bantam

Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 12
A/S/L: 34/M/Indiana
Originally Posted By: Max
I hope someone makes them realize this is not right and they change it back to the 220 which still is not as high as the top bowler thus far after 3 weeks, but closer.
I bowled on my senior league this morning and the league coordinator, who is on the other league , gave me my coupons for 9 free games of practice bowling, 3 for my 225 game, 3 for 600 series, and 3 for 50 pins over average. How can I be a trouble maker here?
On top of that , 2 more friendly employees, (young in their 20's) male and female, from the highest scratch Fri night team (but still losing) are talking with me, giving me pointers, checking out my new plastic spare ball (that does'nt like me), he also works in a Pro Shop , and they just don't seem like they are trying to screw any one.
Is it possible that they don't know that bringing it down to a 200 Avg basis is going to make it so lop sided; or who do you think is more responsible for this change,
the center employees who are also bowlers on the league or the league officers?
In other words, does the league officers tell the center what they want to do or is it vice versa? It does seem odd that neither seemed to know that changing the rules or handicap cap was likely not legal after the league started.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge with me guys and I will definitely keep you posted if this flies or if they call another meeting before we bowl Fri.


In order to change it back, the league officers would probably make sure that it's done according to USBC rules. That means getting EVERY team captain to agree to the rule change in writing, even though they didn't follow that rule to make the change before.

In the 3 leagues I'm in, there are league rules stating that there can't be multiple league officers on one team. This has helped ensure that no individual team has too much power in the leagues. This may or may not have helped in your situation though.

Personally, I think it's wrong for leagues to call a meeting and then ask for a vote from the captains immediately. There is no reason why they can't address the situation in front of the whole league and then give the captains say 5 minutes to discuss it with their teams to see what the team wants. They could also type out a quick summary of what they are wanting to do, give it to the captains, and ask them to sign it if they agree with the change by the end of the night.

Sorry, I like bowling in league and actually like the way the officers in my leagues run those leagues, but I've also been on the leagues that would try something like Max's league did.

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#190199 - 01/31/15 09:58 AM Re: Changing average equitable basis in middle of leag [Re: Max]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1216
A/S/L: 63/M /Georgia
I am not a league officer but I make it a point to know the USBC and league rules. This would of never happened in our league. I would of objected to the change and then challenged the league president about enforcing the rules. It is his duty to enforce the rules.

Rule change benefited the 220+ bowlers the most. If you are a 200 average bowler you just gave that 220+ 18 more pins.
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