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#186131 - 03/23/14 08:33 AM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? ***** [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Unfortunately, we cannot see directly into Storm's Matchmaker feature to understand why it makes certain choices. But, we can adjust the input variables to see different results.

For example, if we keep all your same input variables, but change the Axis of Rotation to Up the Back:
Current Average: 141-175
Ball Speed: Slower
Rev Rate: Lower
Axis of Rotation: Up the Back
Lane Condition: Medium
Track: High

THEN, Matchmaker recommends:
Ball: Lights Out http://stormbowling.com/products/balls/lightsout
Coverstock: R2S™ Hybrid Reactive
Weight Block: Turbine™ Core

But, is that ball going to work best for you, with your Off the Side release? Hmm...

My weakest cover strike ball is my Natural Pearl. My weakest core strike ball is my Ascent Pearl. I can assure you when the conditions call for either of these balls, nothing in my arsenal hits harder. The reason is they allow me to move my target line as far outside as necessary to play the shot. That alone increases entry angle. And, because they skid further than other balls, they retain more energy on impact. Don't mistake weak or entry level for ineffective.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

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#186132 - 03/23/14 08:44 AM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: BOSStull]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
I've got to assume that Storm's Matchmaker is keying on the ball speed. I was remembering back when the PBA was on ABC, Bo Burton Jr. made a comment that if your ball speed was much under 16mph, you become too much a slave to the lane condition. In other words your ball reaction would be very sensitive to small transitions a faster ball might ignore. I'm paraphrasing, it's been a few years smile

I'm just guessing that Storm is trying to put a low diff, clean-cover ball in your hands to minimize over-reaction to the dry and small transitions, again due to your ball speed. I don't know... I don't think it's "bad" advice but you definitely have to take your own past experience into account.

For what it's worth, our leadoff bowler has a full roller release and ball speed in the 13-14.5 mph range (downlane). His average is 192 these days, dead last in the league (yeah he's killing us as a team) but honestly I don't think a 192 average is anything to sneeze at. I've only seen him roll two balls this season, one a Brunswick Wicked Siege (a fairly strong asym pearl) and I think a Nexus f (p+f) (a very strong asym solid). Once in a while when he is "on" he leads the team, seems like he gets in the most trouble when the lanes transition and rather than move left a little, he just tightens up and throws, rather than rolls it. For reference the lane condition at this house is the heaviest THS I've seen, I struggled mightily for the first several weeks I was bowling there trying to make a mid-price hybrid turn the corner and carry the corner pins and it just wouldn't do it... I do my best work there with a double-thumb layout Defiant Soul at around 2000 abralon.

I guess I'm saying, "Take Matchmaker into account but consider your own experience as well". You might not want a super-strong ball like my teammate uses, but maybe something like a Hy-road, with high RG and a predictable coverstock, might be "up your alley".... Lights-Out, same idea.
_________________________
Code Red, Code Black, Roto Grip Hustle POW, White Dot in the bag.

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#186140 - 03/23/14 10:29 AM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Rick, it turns out that Storm Matchmaker is not keying on anything in particular such as speed, but the combination of input variables, as it should. With Nord's input specs, changing the Ball Speed from Slower to Average produces the same recommendation, the same as changing the Axis of Rotation from Off the Side to In Between. It is only when you change it to Faster and/or Up the Back, does it change the recommendation.

Nord, a couple other reasons I agree with Matchmaker's Tropical Breeze recommendation are your current average (and need for a control ball), your full roller release and speed (which tend to get the ball rolling early), your comfort zone being down and in (rather than hooking the lane), and just switching from rolling plastic and urethane (a mild reactive resin being the next step up).

It's good to get lots of input. But, don't confuse other bowler's experience and results with your expectations unless they match your grip, delivery, and release specs. The other balls mentioned are all great balls. The question is would they be great for you?

If it makes you feel better, Matchmaker recommends the same Tropical Breeze ball for bowlers with the following higher average specs, but for light conditions. My specs are a little different, and the equivalent ball in my arsenal is a Motiv Ascent Pearl, but the idea is the same. Match the ball to the bowler to the condition.

Input:
Current Average: 211 and higher
Ball Speed: Average
Rev Rate: Average
Axis of Rotation: In Between
Lane Condition: Light
Track: Medium

Recommendation:
Tropical Breeze Pink/Purple http://stormbowling.com/products/balls/tropicalbreezepink-purple
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
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Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#186143 - 03/23/14 11:24 AM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: Joe Bowler]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
I went and played around with the matchmaker app.

Keeping to a "lower" ball speed and 141-175 average, about the only way to get a "heavy hitter" recommendation is to choose lower rev rate, up the back, heavy oil and low track (gets you the Byte). I was also able to get the Marvel Pearl and IQTP changing this or that variable.

I don't know. I've always figured "match ball to lane condition" and "step one down rev dominance and step one up for speed dominance- maybe". Storm seems to be suggesting a step down even though with slower speed and lower revs, one might assume the bowler is matched. Bumping the average up to 176-210 doesn't necessarily change it either. so it's not just the "entry level" aspect.

I do want to echo your sentiment about "entry level" equipment. My Roto Grip Shout is pretty similar on paper to the Ascents, and it hits crazy-hard provided there is sufficient friction for it to see a roll. On the other hand, too much friction too soon for a high-end piece and you have a marshmallow on your hands.
_________________________
Code Red, Code Black, Roto Grip Hustle POW, White Dot in the bag.

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#186145 - 03/23/14 11:52 AM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: nord
This last Thursday I used my Slingshot (a weak ball) with my old way of throwing and here was the reaction.

Standing with my right foot on center spot, target is 13 board out to 9 and back.

A small miss inside of my break point would cross over Brooklyn.
A two board miss outside of break-point would get back, but then hit weak leaving ten pin or five pin or even 5-10 split.

Lanes were pretty dry that night.

Nord, I almost forgot you already have a Slingshot, which is comparable to the Tropical Breeze. Concerning getting lined up, I suspect you might have had better results moving parallel (feet and target) further right into the friction. It sounds like you were playing so tight inside in the oil that you did not have any mistake area or enough entry angle. Depending on your ball reaction, you could also try opening up your angles, meaning feet further inside and/or target further outside.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#186151 - 03/23/14 05:14 PM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: Joe Bowler]
nord Online   content
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 704
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
The impression I had when using the slingshot was it was far too weak to use inside, playing 13 out to 9 and back.

If it got a tad right it would come back too weakly and leave corners.

If I moved right with it and went more straight up 9 then it reacted too quickly and would cross over, probably my slow ball speed and 90 degree side roll kicking in.

If you look at the video of me throwing the Nano you will see the 13 out to 9 and back effect I like. Notice the subtle ball reaction and soft backend move.

I don't have the Nano anymore, it cracked. They say it was a super strong ball, but it was always very smooth and subtle for me and never jumped.

I had the most control with it, and in my hands it played like a urethane ball.

Other reactive balls I have tried like the Slingshot, Karma Solid, f(P+R), Cobalt Vibe, Midnight Vibe, all jump on me in the backend pretty strongly making control difficult.

All of these balls go very long and seem like they are not doing anything and then all of a sudden they jump!

The Nano never jumped on me, it was always super smooth and had a nice gradual controllable reaction.

With the Nano it was possible to zero in on the line and break point by making micro adjustments.

It never overreacted if I missed a little bit one way or the other.

What does this mean?

Check out my two Nano vids and watch how smooth this ball is.

I can almost throw it perfectly straight and not get an over reaction.

The first vid is with polish at 4000 grit, the second is 500 grit dull:




_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

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#186152 - 03/23/14 05:58 PM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: nord]
nord Online   content
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 704
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
This is my thought process; please correct me if I am wrong.

• I have a 90 degree axis rotation with zero tilt.
• I have slow ball speed 11-12mph.
• By the nature of my axis rotation, my ball will tend to slide longer and transition later even with my slower speed.
• If I use a weaker ball designed to go longer and then hook stronger in the back end I am setting up a recipe for disaster.
• Such a ball will tend to exaggerate my ball action and produce a big over/under reaction making control very difficult.
• This is what I see with the pearls or weaker dry lane balls I have used and mentioned.
• If I use a heavy oil ball with an early rolling core that flares a lot then I will get a much more mild reaction and more control.
• The heavy oil, early roll ball, will smooth out my 90 degree axis rotation and allow the ball to transition into a roll earlier and give me a more gradual and forgiving reaction overall.
• With this strong ball I won’t see the annoying jump in the back end that I get with the weaker balls, just a nice gradual arc.

Thoughts?
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
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#186165 - 03/24/14 08:21 AM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
I would say early and angular are the recipe for disaster. On paper, that's what you get with a slower ball speed and higher axis rotation. These two contrasting styles are fighting each other every shot to determine the ball's breakpoint, so variations in lane conditions and your delivery are more likely to affect the results.

The ball and surface you choose can help determine which aspect to emphasize. Early and arcing would be better for control (ex: Nano sanded). Late and angular would be better for entry angle (ex: Slingshot polished). Which of these is best depends on the lane conditions you bowl, where you line up your feet and target, and how many balls you want to carry in your arsenal. Generally, it makes sense to fill the biggest gap with the most likely used equipment.

I would also say that 13 out to 9 is a very tight inside line. Most of the time on a house shot, I am looking at the 1 board downlane and rolling over the 3 board. Maybe that is a lefty stroker thing, I don't know. But, if you cannot play outside for whatever reason, you will likely need help from the ball to generate sufficient friction and entry angle.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#186170 - 03/24/14 11:17 AM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: Joe Bowler]
nord Online   content
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 704
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
3 to 1 and back?!
Wow Joe that is a scary line.
I have never tried to skim it like that.
I just assumed if I did that with my high axis rotation and slow ball speed it would just go into the left gutter.

I will give it a try this Thursday during sweeps. I assume you recommend my Natural Pearl for this type of line?

Also you say if I cannot play this outside line I "will likely need help from the ball to generate sufficient friction and entry angle."

What does this mean as far as ball choice and choosing a path to the pocket?

I have had my eye on the new LT48, they say it is for slower ball speed players. Do you think this ball might match up well for my style?
http://www.bowlwithbrunswick.com/balls/detail/lt-48/


Edited by nord (03/24/14 11:20 AM)
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 621
House Avg: 177

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Visionary The Crow Urethane
Visionary The Judge Urethane
Brunswick Grizz Urethane

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#186172 - 03/24/14 11:50 AM Re: How to match a ball to the player's style? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
To be clear, I am talking about a visual straight line to the 1 board (or further off the lane) at 40 feet, however, the ball rolling over the 3 board at 40 feet as the result of friction. The position on the approach, the rollover board at the arrows, and the ball used all depend on how much friction is available and the location of the oil line. But, the 40 foot, 1 board (and out) visual target remains relatively constant for me on a house shot. Note that a casual observer would probably not notice I was aiming for the gutter because the ball rarely gets closer than the 3 board.

Why target so far outside? That is where you will find the most friction on a house shot. And, friction is power in bowling. If you don't use the friction the lane provides, then you need to generate that friction yourself, either with your hand (revolutions) or the ball (track flare, surface, etc.). And, for a given amount of hook, the farther outside the ball starts, the greater its entry angle into the pocket. You need enough friction to get the ball into a roll before it hits the pocket, and approximately 6 degrees entry angle for best carry.

Sorry, not familiar enough with the new LT-48 to offer an opinion.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
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