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#184659 - 01/28/14 07:26 AM Re: Pattern Carving ***** [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Had a good night carving on the Shark, starting and ending with 200+ games, and splitting with one of the top bowlers in the league.

On the Shark pattern, 6 and out is like the gutter. 7 board is iffy. So, I started straight up 8 board with my HyperCell at 320 grit in practice. By the end of the 4th game, I had moved inside 6+ boards with my feet and 3+ boards with my target at the arrows, maintaining the same 8 board downlane target. We were bowling on the end pair, and the outer lane opened up even more, but not enough to switch balls. Third game, I tried my Big Bang SE sanded 600, but it would not make the turn. I have a Byte on the way, which I should be able to try as a second ball next week.

My greatest challenge continues to be my lefty teammate, who was the only other lefty on the pair. During practice and the first game, he started rolling a polished ball up 5/6, extending the out-of-bounds to the backend, outside my target line. Later, he decided to point a dull ball over 11-12 downlane, inside my target line. The irony is straight up 8-10 board is where he prefers to play, which would have been fine for both of us. Argh! If he listened and made an effort to learn and work together it would be one thing. But, he's left me no choice but to start counting down the weeks till the league is over to replace him. PBAX conditions are enough of a challenge without your teammates working against you.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
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Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#184661 - 01/28/14 07:46 AM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: Joe Bowler]
rrb6699 (RayRay) Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 513
A/S/L: Single/male/FL
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
There was lots of pattern carving at the PBA Tournament of Champions. You could see Wes Malott riding the edge of the blue oil line inside of the carved area.


see now that's the kind of picture i've been looking for. of course this is a good example of carving where everyone knows what is going on.

RR
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Multi wins/Top 5 Finshes-Scr&Hcp events

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#184830 - 02/02/14 02:16 PM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
I drilled up some new heavy duty carving tools, a Sync and a Byte. Their specs fit nicely with my other equipment. It's a shame I probably won't get to use these four balls much except for my PBAX league, at least not at their current grit. But, I am looking forward to a better second half of the season. My new goal is if it's not a house shot, to do my best to carve it into one by the end of the night. I may have lost my patience too soon with the Bear pattern. The last two patterns, Chameleon and Shark, showed signs of opening up after hammering away at the same spot for a few games with stronger equipment.

Carving Outside (lower RG, more Diff, earlier, more arcing):
Layout: 97.5 x 3-3/8 in x 41
1. Sync - 320 dull - 2.47, .058, .026
2. Raptor P7 - 600 dull - 2.46, .060, .015

Carving Inside (higher RG, less Diff, later, more angular):
Layout: 68 x 5-7/16 in x 37
1. HyperCell - 320 dull - 2.52, .048, .017
2. Byte - 600 dull - 2.52, .044, .017


Attachments
HeavyDutyCarvingTools.jpg


_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#184838 - 02/02/14 05:02 PM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: Joe Bowler]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
Holy paradigm shift, Batman!

Also, I'm often momentarily baffled when you post specs on your gear... I keep tabs on a lot of the equipment out there, but mainly pay attention to the 15 lb numbers, I forget altogether about 16 lb sometimes smile

Vaguely related, I guess... being kind of a self-professed cheap bastard (note the homemade oven LOL) I hate to "experiment" with brand-new gear. I wanted to experiment with a strong asym and a longer pin-to-pap (not that my Defiant Soul at 4.5" is exactly "short", which of course has me second-guessing...)

I like the numbers on the 15 lb Roto Hyper Cell (2.52RG, .056 diff, .018 mb, Microbite cover). Still, they don't give them away, kinda pricey just to try a layout and ball-selection strategy. On FB there's a group "buy used bowling balls", I saw a 15lb Storm Vivid for sale... hmmm... (2.52,.050, .017, NRG cover). Close enough for government work. Saved enough to grab a used IQ Tour Edition to experiment with (including plug and drill fees on both) BUT when you know what you want, single drill gear IS nice smile
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Code Red, Code Black, Roto Grip Hustle POW, White Dot in the bag.

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#184841 - 02/02/14 06:38 PM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: 56bird]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: RickSchott
Holy paradigm shift, Batman!

If you mean becoming a pattern carver, it's fair to say I have gone from wondering what happened, to watching it happen, to (hopefully) making it happen.

The main thing I had to overcome was the idea that I could compete scratch on PBAX conditions rolling a polished ball straight at the pocket. Call me a shim wrecker, but that did work on the Amateur Bowler's Tour on some wacky, undefined patterns where 190 was good enough to win.

But, Brunswick Pro Anvilane is too slick, and the level of competition in my PBAX league too tough for that. They are mostly experienced competitive bowlers, who know the patterns, how to carve them up, and it usually takes 200 or better to win. And, it's scratch competition. So, if you are not carving, you are not winning.

The other thing I had to overcome is the idea that being left-handed, it's a waste of time to carve unless you have a whole team of lefties working together, which is a rare event. It was that way in other previous PBAX leagues I bowled where every pattern played like a reverse block on the left side week after week. However, in my current PBAX league, the patterns have been playing true to form, and I proved to myself I could open up the shot with the right equipment and some patience. Even if it's just a board over the course of four games, it helps.

Concerning equipment, it took some experimenting to find the lowest effective grit I could use (320 CAMI) to both carve and roll for score. It might be higher on a different lane surface. Concerning my thoughts on layouts, RG, Diff, and matching up to patterns, they are pretty much still the same.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#184842 - 02/02/14 09:31 PM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: Joe Bowler]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
Search function smile

Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler

A while back, after years of experimentation, I standardized my layout across all of my equipment, and have been very happy with the results. When I want a different ball reaction, I choose a ball with a different core/cover/surface prep combination. The layout stays the same.

I am aware it would be possible to increase/decrease flare with a strategically placed balance hole or changing the drilling angle on an asymmetrical ball. But, I find these effects, along with other Dual Angle adjustments, to be marginal and prefer the consistency of one, simple, optimized layout.


I'm not throwing stones AT ALL, just explaining why I had to squint and blink my eyes, then read and re-read the ball descriptions.

I like it. A couple strong rocks that should cover some real estate, a couple strong rocks that should get into a roll FOR SURE.
_________________________
Code Red, Code Black, Roto Grip Hustle POW, White Dot in the bag.

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#184846 - 02/02/14 10:25 PM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: 56bird]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: RickSchott
Search function smile

Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler

A while back, after years of experimentation, I standardized my layout across all of my equipment, and have been very happy with the results. When I want a different ball reaction, I choose a ball with a different core/cover/surface prep combination. The layout stays the same.

I am aware it would be possible to increase/decrease flare with a strategically placed balance hole or changing the drilling angle on an asymmetrical ball. But, I find these effects, along with other Dual Angle adjustments, to be marginal and prefer the consistency of one, simple, optimized layout.


I'm not throwing stones AT ALL, just explaining why I had to squint and blink my eyes, then read and re-read the ball descriptions.

I like it. A couple strong rocks that should cover some real estate, a couple strong rocks that should get into a roll FOR SURE.

I see. Don't be mistaken to think there is any huge paradigm shift because I am testing a new layout. Before drilling the HyperCell, I had an idea I could tweak my favorite layout to eliminate the bowtie overlap while maintaining the same amount of track flare. I thought it might work because asymmetrical balls are less sensitive to Pin to PAP distance in determining the amount of track flare. So, I was able to take parts of my favorite layout (6-3/4 Pin to center of thumbhole to maximize Diff) and my Universal Benchmark Layout (Drilling Angle to align with initial track) and adjusted the Pin to PAP distance to shift the axis migration from my ring finger to the center of my grip, thus aligning the bowties.

So, while my favorite layout is still 3-3/8 Pin to PAP x 6-3/4 Pin to center of thumbhole, which is how I drilled the new Sync (and Raptor P7), the alternative layout I am testing on the HyperCell and Byte is 5-7/16 Pin to PAP x 6-3/4 Pin to center of thumbhole. The net difference in simulated results in Blueprint is minimal, but it tickles my brain you can do that with an asymmetrical ball, so I did. I just translated the layouts to Dual Angle, since that is a familiar coordinate system. The long term value of testing the tweaked layout is I know the flare safety of my favorite layout is limited to rev rates under 300 RPM. The tweaked layout has been tested in Blueprint to be flare safe to over 500 RPMs. If I am drilling for somebody else, that is good to know. And, if it works just as well for me, it may become my new one, simple, further optimized layout (thanks to Blueprint).

But for me, the most important thing in determining ball reaction continues to be different core/cover/surface prep combinations as demonstrated by my selections. So, no paradigm shift there. But, I am glad you are paying such close attention. smile
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#184849 - 02/03/14 08:59 AM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: Joe Bowler]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
Roger that. The bit about flexibility in drilling an asym vs. sym cored ball makes perfect sense to me (a long pin-to-pap on a sym ball is very different in effect from a long pin-to-pap on an asym ball as you're well aware).

I hope you will like the long pin-to-pap layout. My prediction is that you will find the ball doesn't cover a ton of boards (for what it is) BUT will get into a roll FOR SURE if you do your part. My Defiant Soul with the 4 1/2" pin resembles this remark and I love the thing. OTOH I'm wrong 50 times/day and this may well be one of them smile

I think I get what you're saying though. Using the long pin-to-pap on the asym which should still provide about as much flare as the ball has to offer is very different from taking a strong ball and "neutering" it with a flare-reducing layout (when there was probably a ball that would do this by nature of its core, somewhere down the product line!)

It's not a paradigm shift to the level of someone fond of saying "Only 3% of the adult male population needs polished surface" coming out to the lanes with an IQTP you can see yourself in, but it did raise my eyebrows a bit!
_________________________
Code Red, Code Black, Roto Grip Hustle POW, White Dot in the bag.

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#184857 - 02/03/14 12:58 PM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: 56bird]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: RickSchott
It's not a paradigm shift to the level of someone fond of saying "Only 3% of the adult male population needs polished surface" coming out to the lanes with an IQTP you can see yourself in, but it did raise my eyebrows a bit!

I am not sure where that quote came from. But, I am sure it has nothing to do with this discussion. So, let me be clear, seeking to improve my favorite layout is not a paradigm shift AT ALL. My goal remains to extract the maximum performance from each ball depending on its starting specs. If I can do that AND make the ball flare safe independent of rev rate AND reduce bowtie overlap AND use the same widely available 3-4 inch Pin to CG ordering specs, so much the better. If the new equipment surely gets into a roll, it will not be because of any difference in layout, but due to the strength of the coverstock material, and being surface prepped to 320/600 grit.

Let me show you the comparison I did for myself in Blueprint before drilling the HyperCell. I used an Ebonite Challenge, a relatively strong asymmetrical ball for the simulation. Below are the undrilled and drilled specs, and a simulation rolling them on Shark. My conclusion was there would not be much difference in performance, although my favorite layout is a fraction of a board stronger in total hook, so I proceeded to drill the HyperCell with the new layout. In my next post, I will show you what my goal was with the ball track.


Attachments
01_Undrilled.jpg

02_Favorite Drilled.jpg

03_Testing Drilled.jpg

04_Favorite Simulation.jpg

05_Testing Simulation.jpg


_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#184859 - 02/03/14 01:13 PM Re: Pattern Carving [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Below is a comparison of the ball track of my favorite layout (top) and the test layout (bottom). Notice in my favorite layout 1) the overlap around the bowties, 2) how the flare rings approach the thumbhole, and 3) the arcing axis migration towards my ring finger. Those are the things I was trying to tweak out without significantly reducing the amount of track flare. I like the results so far, but I need to do more "real life testing" (hehe, inside joke) with the HyperCell and Byte before making it my new favorite layout, at least for asyms.


Attachments
06_Favorite Flare.jpg

07_Testing Flare.jpg


_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
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