BowlingFans.com, The site for the fans, by the fans....
Sponsored Links




ChatBox:

Sponsored Links


Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#182990 - 11/27/13 08:01 AM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Dennis Michael]
sk8shorty01 Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5130
A/S/L: 29/M/Merritt Island, FL
Joe,

I think what Dennis is saying is that Brunswick is affiliated with the PBA and is a direct competitor to Kegel so its doubtful Kegel is going to do the research on the blue-dye oil in order to help out their competitor.

Kegel makes lane machines, so does Brunswick.

Kegel also makes lane conditioner, so does Brunswick.

If Kegel was able to get the blue-dye researched and approved it would put Brunswick ahead of them in the conditioner business because I am sure they would own the patent on the visible lane conditioner, therefore Kegel would be helping Brunswick render the Kegel lane conditioner obsolete.
_________________________
Storm Amatuer Staff Member
BowlersMart.com Staff Member
Logo Infusion Staff Member
IAB Staff Member

PBA Member
USBC Level 1 Certified Coach
Head Coach - Cocoa High School

Career 300 games - 4
Career 800 series - 4
High Scratch Series - 823

Top
#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links Online   content
Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
Top
#182992 - 11/27/13 08:27 AM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: sk8shorty01]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3630
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: sk8shorty01
Joe,

I think what Dennis is saying is that Brunswick is affiliated with the PBA and is a direct competitor to Kegel so its doubtful Kegel is going to do the research on the blue-dye oil in order to help out their competitor.

Kegel makes lane machines, so does Brunswick.

Kegel also makes lane conditioner, so does Brunswick.

If Kegel was able to get the blue-dye researched and approved it would put Brunswick ahead of them in the conditioner business because I am sure they would own the patent on the visible lane conditioner, therefore Kegel would be helping Brunswick render the Kegel lane conditioner obsolete.


If blue (or some other color) dye becomes a popular idea, I think whoever patents the formula first stands to benefit the most. If Kegel gets their own lane conditioner with blue dye tested, approved, and to bowling centers first, I don't think it will matter what machines it is used on, or what patterns are applied with it. I guess I am missing how that would benefit Brunswick, unless you assume that Brunswick is going to win the race, hold all the patents, and everybody else has to pay Brunswick to use blue dye.
_________________________
Career (since 2008):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 198

16# Sync, HyperCell, Sinister, Hy-Road, Hy-Road Pearl, IQ Tour Pearl, IQ Tour, Tank, Mix, Ice

Advice is offered free, as-is, for info only, not a substitute for prof. assistance

Top
#182996 - 11/27/13 10:02 AM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Joe Bowler]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9243
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Originally Posted By: sk8shorty01
Joe,

I think what Dennis is saying is that Brunswick is affiliated with the PBA and is a direct competitor to Kegel so its doubtful Kegel is going to do the research on the blue-dye oil in order to help out their competitor.

Kegel makes lane machines, so does Brunswick.

Kegel also makes lane conditioner, so does Brunswick.

If Kegel was able to get the blue-dye researched and approved it would put Brunswick ahead of them in the conditioner business because I am sure they would own the patent on the visible lane conditioner, therefore Kegel would be helping Brunswick render the Kegel lane conditioner obsolete.


If blue (or some other color) dye becomes a popular idea, I think whoever patents the formula first stands to benefit the most. If Kegel gets their own lane conditioner with blue dye tested, approved, and to bowling centers first, I don't think it will matter what machines it is used on, or what patterns are applied with it. I guess I am missing how that would benefit Brunswick, unless you assume that Brunswick is going to win the race, hold all the patents, and everybody else has to pay Brunswick to use blue dye.


sk8 is right. You won't see Kegel oil or conditioner being used in a Brunswick house.

In fact, rather then the generic, 1 oil fits all centers, Kegel customs the formula and application for the specific house conditions, taking into account humidity and weather conditions, that affect those particular lanes. They even set up their machine to apply oil and conditioner for that house condition. In most privately owned houses, where Kegel is prevalent, you will find a Kegel service tech customizing the machine, application, and formula as part of their service agreement with the house.

I tend to think, this is the reason that in most privately owned houses around here, the shot is heavier, longer and lasts more then a few frames of a game. It's much more competitive in the private houses then the chains. I do know the viscosity is heavier in one house I bowl in rather then the light oil used elsewhere.

That is also why, I find some balls just don't work at one house vs another.
_________________________
Brunswick - Meanstreak 15#
Lord Field - Exodus Pearl 15#
Legends - L/M Widow Maker 15# Polished Hybrid
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




Top
#182997 - 11/27/13 10:19 AM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Dennis Michael]
sk8shorty01 Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5130
A/S/L: 29/M/Merritt Island, FL
My guess is Brunswick has already won the race. They are the ones that built the visible oil for the PBA, doubtful they didn't patent the idea first.

Brunswick is the official lane maintenance and conditioner (including the oiling machines) company of the PBA so they are the ones that built the visible conditioner.

Kegel, at this point, would only be doing research to get visible oil approved that they would not be able to utilize because Brunswick would own the exclusive rights for it (I am assuming considering they are the inventors of the product).
_________________________
Storm Amatuer Staff Member
BowlersMart.com Staff Member
Logo Infusion Staff Member
IAB Staff Member

PBA Member
USBC Level 1 Certified Coach
Head Coach - Cocoa High School

Career 300 games - 4
Career 800 series - 4
High Scratch Series - 823

Top
#182998 - 11/27/13 10:57 AM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Dennis Michael]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3630
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Dennis, the fact is the one center I bowl is on Brunswick Pro Anvilane, and uses Kegel Fire lane conditioner for their USBC-certified PBAX league. Over the years, they have had a variety of lane machines, including both Brunswick and Kegel machines. And, they have previously hosted PBA regional events. It's not Brunswick owned, it's on a military base, and they have had the same lane maintenance crew for at least the past 5 years.

Sk8, since we are only speculating, I would speculate that whatever Brunswick has done could be independently developed by another company without violating any patents. We are only talking about adding/removing colored dye. Different companies do make different colored reactive resin bowling balls, right? All another company would have to do is make a different color (neon green?), or the color dissipates on its own, or it is easier to remove, etc, to get their own patent. Further, the race to patent, and the race to bring a product to market are two different things.

My original point is just that I don't see individual bowling centers adding any dye to their oil on their own initiative. I think they will wait for a product from Brunswick, Kegel, or whoever produces it, if the idea catches on.
_________________________
Career (since 2008):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 198

16# Sync, HyperCell, Sinister, Hy-Road, Hy-Road Pearl, IQ Tour Pearl, IQ Tour, Tank, Mix, Ice

Advice is offered free, as-is, for info only, not a substitute for prof. assistance

Top
#182999 - 11/27/13 11:10 AM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Dennis Michael]
sk8shorty01 Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5130
A/S/L: 29/M/Merritt Island, FL
It depends on how tight the patent is (assuming there is one) for Brunswick.

If the patent reads that "the oil is blue" then Kegel can just change the color and run with it.

If the patent reads that "the oil is visible to the naked eye due to coloring" or something along those lines then Kegel would be out of luck.

The goal of a patent is to make it as vague as possible to eliminate as many competitors as possible and keep your product rights.

You have to apply for the patent how you want it written and it will either be approved or rejected. You continually try to increase the vagueness of the patent wording as you go to create as much as a buffer as possible. I only understand this because, as a Design Engineer at Kennedy Space Center, we have to apply for patents quite often. I would bet I have now applied (via my company) for roughly 100 patents at this point.

Now, as far as your actual point, I agree that bowling centers are going to wait on an approved conditioner to come out from one of the major companies. Even if something comes out as approved, which I assume will be way in the future (5 years), it is doubtful many centers will jump on board for years after that. It might be 10-15 years before we see this technology utilized in a league setting.
_________________________
Storm Amatuer Staff Member
BowlersMart.com Staff Member
Logo Infusion Staff Member
IAB Staff Member

PBA Member
USBC Level 1 Certified Coach
Head Coach - Cocoa High School

Career 300 games - 4
Career 800 series - 4
High Scratch Series - 823

Top
#183001 - 11/27/13 11:28 AM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Dennis Michael]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3630
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
See the link below for a discussion of patent requirements.
http://www.bitlaw.com/patent/requirements.html

Sk8, as I'm sure you know, not every "invention" is patentable. It has to be statutory, new, useful, and nonobvious. Presumably, what you work on as a design engineer for the Kennedy Space Center meets these requirements. But, adding colored dye to oil might not even qualify.

My guess, if the idea catches on, is there will be products available to local bowling centers within the next 2 years.
_________________________
Career (since 2008):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 198

16# Sync, HyperCell, Sinister, Hy-Road, Hy-Road Pearl, IQ Tour Pearl, IQ Tour, Tank, Mix, Ice

Advice is offered free, as-is, for info only, not a substitute for prof. assistance

Top
#183067 - 12/01/13 04:21 PM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Dennis Michael]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9243
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
The lineman told me something, today. Rather then dying the oil blue, the House could just turn off the lights and turn on black lights. The additive to measure the oil volume glows in black light.

So, they show the oil pattern for Cosmic bowling, but not for regular or league play.

Sounds backwards to me.
_________________________
Brunswick - Meanstreak 15#
Lord Field - Exodus Pearl 15#
Legends - L/M Widow Maker 15# Polished Hybrid
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




Top
#183068 - 12/01/13 04:47 PM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Dennis Michael]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6245
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
The lineman told me something, today. Rather then dying the oil blue, the House could just turn off the lights and turn on black lights. The additive to measure the oil volume glows in black light.
So, they show the oil pattern for Cosmic bowling, but not for regular or league play.
Sounds backwards to me.


I've done quite a bit of cosmic bowling and never saw the oil glowing on the lanes, even just a little. I know there are black lights over the lanes as the black light balls glow. The only time I say anything glow on the lanes other than the balls or if something else ended up on the lane is at one house that had lines going down the lane. I can't remember if the lines corresponded with the arrows or the boards the pins were spotted on as I've only been in that center once while cosmic bowling was going on.
_________________________
Calvin's Highs
Career
HG:300
HS:763

Top
#183072 - 12/01/13 06:57 PM Re: Blue dye in lane oil [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
rrb6699 (RayRay) Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 436
A/S/L: Single/male/FL
i do cosmic sometimes competitive on Sat nites at one house that has black lights only on right over the lanes. you have to get close but can see the oil 'sheen' in those lights. if there are any other lights that come on then it's harder to see. a lot of things affect seeing the oil, but, UV additives i think have always been in lane oil depending on the type of oil.

RR
_________________________
Twnr-RH
300(6) 290(33) 280(25)
Ser- 1046-4g 867-3g
Tilt: 15, AoR- 65, PAP: 5+/- ovr, 3/8up,
Sp: 15-18.5 avg
NVS-15#
REAX Pearl 15#
Quantum Violelt-16#
16#WhDots-Silvr Labl-drl, Grey-PBA Layout
MH Rubber-sp
Multi wins/Top 5 Fnshes-Scr&Hdcp events

Top
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >



Moderator:  Angel, Community Manager 
Savings That Support BowlingCommunity.com
We need your help!
Rather than begging for donations we're asking you to do one simple thing to help keep these forums running smooth:
When shopping for anything on Amazon.com or eBay please use these links to go to the web sites.

This won't cost you a cent!
You'll still get the exact same low prices, deals and free or low cost shipping; it doesn't change anything for you at all! The items do not have to be bowling related; all purchases made through these links help us! Amazon.com and eBay will pay us a small commission for every sale and it's helping us cover the expenses.




BowlingCommunity.com Recent Posts
Fall/Winter Leagues 2014-15 thread
by Richie V. - Today at 01:08 AM
The Weak Ten pin?
by steveA - Yesterday at 07:11 PM
Adding new ball to the arsenal
by spectral - Yesterday at 10:16 AM
Fall '14 Week 6 virtual league results
by SteveH - 10/20/14 08:26 PM
Help choosing a new ball
by Cray - 10/20/14 12:45 AM
1500 abralon pad
by Dave800 - 10/19/14 07:58 PM
First Day with the Storm Crux
by SteveH - 10/19/14 06:50 PM
Thumb Tape Help - Gets sticky.
by trekguy - 10/19/14 12:26 PM
New ball purchase question
by SteveH - 10/19/14 10:10 AM
anyone in Ct.?
by 6_ball_man - 10/19/14 09:11 AM
Bowling Links
by BOSStull - 10/19/14 08:35 AM
Chance to win a Storm Crux!
by BOSStull - 10/19/14 07:14 AM
Terms Of Use
Use of this community signifies your agreement to the Community Standards and Conditions of Use.

About BowlingFans.com | Contact Us | Advertise With Us | Site Map
Use of this website constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. | Material Connection Disclosure

Copyright © 1998 - 2014 - usrbingeek LLC | Copyright Policy
BowlingFans.com, BowlingFans, The Right Approach, Kegler's Connection, Tour411, BallBeat, BowlingCommunity.com, BowlSearch.com, and Bowling News You Can Use are trademarks of usrbingeek LLC. All other trademarks and tradenames are property of their respective owners.