BowlingFans.com, The site for the fans, by the fans....
Sponsored Links




ChatBox:

Sponsored Links


Page 9 of 12 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#182234 - 10/24/13 03:25 PM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: Joe Bowler]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Ha, ha! Yes this was one of my favorite parts of the Avengers!
Do that to the pins.
Hey Joe, why don't you start posting some cool videos of yourself bowling, start your own youtube channel.
Teach us some stuff. wink
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

Top
#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links Online   content
Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
Top
#182246 - 10/25/13 09:53 AM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: nord
Ha, ha! Yes this was one of my favorite parts of the Avengers!
Do that to the pins.
Hey Joe, why don't you start posting some cool videos of yourself bowling, start your own youtube channel.
Teach us some stuff. wink

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Nord. But, I will leave the coaching and videos to the experts in that area. When I retire several years from now, it would be fun to have my own Pro Shop, website, etc. In the meantime, I would like to continue bowling competitively as long as I can. I am thankful for this forum and everybody's contribution in sharing their insights, ideas, and knowledge about bowling.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#182256 - 10/26/13 12:34 AM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: Joe Bowler]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Well thanks Joe for your help along my journey.

The pain in my thumb and wrist has gotten worse. I tried to bowl with my fingertip grip and after two games had to stop.

I took a week off and tried with my conventional grip and made it through three games but my wrist and thumb are pretty messed up.

Today I talked to the pro about it all and he said in retrospect, I tried a grip change experiment that was not successful. He said everyone is different and the ball grip must suit the style and structure of the hand or there will be pain and damage potential.

He said even with a good grip bowling is very stressful, but a bad grip is dangerous.

His advice was a conventional grip ball of proper span with these pitches:
1/4 forward in fingers.
7/16 reverse in thumb.
1/4 left lateral thumb.
Vent hole in thumb.

He said this will allow me to throw my full roller with my suitcase grip and the fingers will hold the majority of the ball weight with the thumb holding much less of the weight and able to slide out easily.

He believes the forward thumb pitch was just yanking on my thumb and really stressing it dangerously.

Hopefully this new grip allows my thumb and wrist to heal from the carpel tunnel like pain it now has.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

Top
#182259 - 10/26/13 10:17 AM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Nord, I can relate. Along the path to finding a comfortable grip for myself, I tried a lot of different spans, pitches, and combinations. Some worked better than others. Some just plain hurt and left bruises and/or blisters that required time to heal. For example, a lot of guys prefer lateral thumb pitch away from palm. For me, that pinches my thumb and feels like it's going to tear the skin off just swinging the ball back and forth! There were mental hurdles to adjusting to my current 3/4-inch lateral thumb pitch under palm because it seemed so extreme and in the "wrong" direction. But, that's exactly what I needed. And now, I only have a tiny callous at the base of my thumb on the grip side. And, the ball feels perfectly balanced in my hand. But, it took a year of experimenting to get it right.

If you decide to continue working on your fingertip grip and semi-roller release, be prepared for some successes and failures along the way. It is a trial and error process. If anything causes pain, stop. A proper grip should never hurt. FYI...Bill Hall has published information on fitting what he calls the Tri-Grip. I have not tried it myself, but there is a lot of positive feedback from people who have. It may be worth discussing with your local Pro Shop.

_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#182281 - 10/27/13 03:37 AM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: Joe Bowler]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Thanks Joe,

The Tri-Grip looks very interesting and I would like to know more but his video costs $200 so that is a lot of money just to see if a grip theory would work.

As you know I have always used a "suitcase" grip style. I have never had any pain using this release style except in my shoulder. But that pain has diminished a lot due to better more deliberate form.

Since I switched to reverse in fingers and forward in thumb, pain in the tendon that runs up the back of my thumb has been getting worse and worse until now just trying to type these words hurts.

My previous conventional grip used 7/16th reverse and 1/4 left for the thumb and forward for the fingers. I started thinking about why this never caused any pain.

I attached a pic that may explain this.

When I hold my hand in a relaxed manner at my side in the suitcase grip, the thumb naturally moves to a left lateral reverse pitch position.

When I put my thumb in a forward pitch zero lateral ball the thumb is forced right and in towards the palm in the suitcase grip position.

I now know this puts tremendous strain on the back of the thumb where it meets the wrist. This also forces almost the full weight of the ball to be held by the thumb.

But when I use a reverse pitch left lateral ball the thumb is allowed to be in a more natural position similar to just hanging at the side. With the additional forward pitch in the fingers, the ball's weight is able to be held almost fully by the fingers.

In fact I can insert my fingers into the ball and lift it up entirely just by the fingers, like picking up a suitcase.

So in a suitcase grip, a lot of forward in the fingers and reverse and left in the thumb allows the fingers to hold the majority of the weight of the ball and this takes all the stress off the back of the wrist.

Is it generally said on this forum that reverse pitch forces a person to really grip the ball to hold unto it. This is probably true if a person keeps their hand behind the ball.

But if a person is always on top of the ball with fingers at 3 o'clock and thumb at 9 o'clock then a lot of forward in the fingers and reverse/left in the thumb seems much more natural and comfortable and there is no need to squeeze to hold onto the ball.


Attachments
Thumb Pain.jpg


_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

Top
#182288 - 10/27/13 08:39 AM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: nord
I am wondering if you can give me a piece of advice.
As some of you know I am a Full Roller who is trying to learn stay more behind the ball.
I normally use a suitcase grip but see more potential in a convention release, hopefully a semi-roller in time.

Here is my issue:
My current thumb drilling is optimized for suitcase release.
It has left pitch with an oval so the ball will hang on and yet slide off easily when I am holding the ball in suitcase "from above."

If I turn my hand so I am behind the ball then one of two things happens on the release,
If I stay behind and under it correctly the ball falls right off and I drop it.
If I incorrectly turn my hand towards suitcase and start to come above the ball partway between suitcase and staying behind it then the ball gets stuck and plops off with no lift.

I have attached my current drilling specs.
Is there something with the thumb that needs to change so I can learn to stay behind and under the ball? Something in the thumb drilling that will help me in the new release?

Interesting analysis, but going back to your original post, the question was what could you do to your thumb pitch to facilitate staying behind and under the ball while learning the semi-roller release. If you want to stick with a suitcase grip, and not stay behind and under the ball, then the suggested reverse pitch on the fingers and forward pitch on the thumb does not apply.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#182300 - 10/27/13 04:10 PM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: Joe Bowler]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Yes, I understand Joe.

Reverse on fingers and forward on thumb if I stay behind the ball and try the semi-roller.

As much as I tried I could not stay behind the ball.

But when I was very careful and I did stay perfectly behind the ball, the ball would go either perfectly straight or fade off to the right with reverse spin.

I never figured out how to get hook on the ball when I stayed behind it.

So at this point I need to see if I will even be able to ever bowl again. The nerve pain has not diminished since last Thursday.

I am icing several times per day, taking Advil and at night applying a topical prescription anti-inflammatory patch.

This Thursday is a bye day due to Halloween so I am able to take two weeks off before next league. But it doesn't look good.

I may be done.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

Top
#182315 - 10/28/13 08:43 AM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Nord.

It's hard to imagine an 1/8-inch pitch change causing career-ending pain for an adult male rolling a 12-pound ball even with an improper release. Perhaps that's because I have seen guys come back from broken fingers, wrists, carpal tunnel surgery, torn shoulders, knee/hip replacements, and worse. I will never forget bowling an association tournament behind a bowler with a prosthetic leg. That's love for the sport of bowling.

My suggestion is give it time to heal. See a doctor if necessary. Perhaps there was some latent issue with your wrist that needs to be addressed. Take care of yourself, and soon you will be good as new. In the meantime, think about what you really want to accomplish with your bowling. If you still want to pursue converting to semi-roller, perhaps you should think about finding a coach to help with a proper release first before changing your grip.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#182323 - 10/28/13 01:05 PM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: Joe Bowler]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 759
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Donít know Joe, will have to see about this injury.
First day back at work and using the mouse is a chore.
That tendon must have really been trashed.

I looked at the Bill Hall Trip-Grip video and tried to replicate what he is showing with my ball.
I took my semi-roller drilled conventional grip ball with zero finger pitch and 1/8 forward thumb with zero lateral.
I laid it down like Bill is showing and inserted my fingers into the ball making sure to be perfectly behind the ball like Bill shows in the video.
I then attempted to insert my thumb.
Impossible.
The thumb hole is so far off and angled away and down so much that there is no way I can put my thumb in the ball without really hurting it.
The thumbhole would have to be in a totally different place for my thumb to naturally insert as he shows in the video.

This leads me to believe that my semi-roller drilling is completely wrong as far as the thumb is concerned, probably dangerously wrong and that is why my thumb and wrist were trashed.

And when I tried to stay behind the ball in the release I always stuck, no matter how loose I got the hole, the thumb was just sticking. I think it was the angle and position of the hole which were totally wrong.

Only by turning my hand into suitcase position could I clear the ball.

It is so hard to find anyone who knows what the heck they are doing or how to drill a ball and it looks like my thumb and wrist paid the price.
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630 bowled with Black Widow Urethane.
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Brunswick True Motion Urethane Axis Drill
Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane
Visionary Crow Urethane

Top
#182325 - 10/28/13 02:18 PM Re: Proper Thumb Pitch for a Semi-Roller convert? [Re: nord]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: nord
I used my new fingertip WD with the new drilling tonight in league.

I had practiced on this pair Sunday with good results.

My strategy was simply to stand with my right foot on 13 and throw over 9 and out to 5 or 4 and back to the pocket.

The new 1000 grit fingertip WD with 3/16ths left in the thumb, 1/8th forward in thumb and 1/8 reverse in the fingers felt wonderful. The ball just effortlessly rolled off my hand.

It felt good and looked great. I was able to hit my mark again and again with little variation. I was definitely getting more revs and roll on the ball.

The above was your initial report, which sounded great, so it's hard to say what caused your injury. Good luck, and get well soon.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
Page 9 of 12 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 >



Moderator:  Angel, Community Manager 
Savings That Support BowlingCommunity.com
We need your help!
Rather than begging for donations we're asking you to do one simple thing to help keep these forums running smooth:
When shopping for anything on Amazon.com or eBay please use these links to go to the web sites.

This won't cost you a cent!
You'll still get the exact same low prices, deals and free or low cost shipping; it doesn't change anything for you at all! The items do not have to be bowling related; all purchases made through these links help us! Amazon.com and eBay will pay us a small commission for every sale and it's helping us cover the expenses.

BowlingCommunity.com Recent Posts
Duplicating the reaction of an obsolete ball
by BowlerBill - 7 minutes 57 seconds ago
2018 USBC Open Championships Syracuse NY
by wronghander - 08/07/18 08:45 PM
Summer Leagues 2018 thread
by Vic44 - 08/04/18 10:41 PM
Short Pin to Axis Layouts for Full Rollers?
by nord - 07/28/18 04:27 PM
Axis Weight Layout for Full Roller?
by Mkirchie - 07/28/18 07:45 AM
PBA Moving From ESPN to Fox
by Gutterballqueen313 - 07/25/18 01:50 PM
End of Days
by Gutterballqueen313 - 07/25/18 01:41 PM
Summer House Tourney
by Dennis Michael - 07/24/18 08:26 AM
Help with grip/ Thumb Position
by 82Boat69 - 07/15/18 08:11 PM
Terms Of Use
Use of this community signifies your agreement to the Community Standards and Conditions of Use.

About BowlingFans.com | Contact Us | Advertise With Us | Site Map
Use of this website constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. | Material Connection Disclosure

Copyright © 1998 - 2018 - usrbingeek LLC | Copyright Policy
BowlingFans.com, BowlingFans, The Right Approach, Kegler's Connection, Tour411, BallBeat, BowlingCommunity.com, BowlSearch.com, and Bowling News You Can Use are trademarks of usrbingeek LLC. All other trademarks and tradenames are property of their respective owners.