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#18090 - 07/04/04 01:29 PM Speed vs. revs
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
Hi all!

I am a slow speed, lower rev bowler. My major problem is that I don't get a lot of backend reaction. It seems to me that I have more revs than speed. With this in mind, what should I be looking for in terms of ball selection and drilling layout? What should I stay away from? Every ball I've ever had seems to have more of a continuous roll and no smack in the back.

I'd appreciate some input and suggestions.

P.S. I bowl on medium to medium/heavy synthetics and encounter some carrydown.
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Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
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#18091 - 07/04/04 03:25 PM Re: Speed vs. revs
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
Wow - You really opened up a big old can of worms... smile

To really give you an accurate answer, I would have to see you bowl, and look at the oil rings on your ball.

There is so many factors involved with the release that effect rev rate and forward motion, that you really need a trained eye advising you.

If you have a knowledgeable, experienced pro-shop person you trust, ask them to assist you. If they are willing to tell you that they know what you need without asking you a lot of questions first, then be leary.

You need to know your average ball speed,lane position and mark, to get started. If you throw at 12 mph, straight up the 12 board with a lot of rpm, then the ball needs to have length to it. If you throw at 14mph with the same rev rate in the same place the ball needs less length.

Does that make sense?

A floor biting ball with high revs and slow forward speed would never make it to the pocket at 12 mph from the 12 board. It would have to come up to 15 or 16 mph to do it.

Backend reation comes from stored energy. The energy gets stored from sliding on the floor rather than rolling on the floor. If the ball can make it to the dry backend and still hold its rpm then it expends the energy in the last 10 to 20 feet of the lane. The sooner it starts rolling the sooner the energy is expended.

Sorry if I made this confusing.

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#18092 - 07/04/04 08:46 PM Re: Speed vs. revs
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
Coach04 -

Thanks for your reply. Let's forget about the rev to speed ratio and start again. Here's my overall problem.

I've been to two different pro shops and don't feel that I've been matched up properly with ball or layout. The last four balls I've had are Dominator, Fuel, Vendetta Black Solid and most currently Blade Solid. Most of the time the balls hook too much and never seem to have enough energy in the backend.

I'll try and give you as much info about myself as possible.

Slow speed (11-12) and low revs - throw hook style
PAP - 5 7/8 over 1 3/4 up
Axis rotation - 45 degrees (I believe)
Stroker style - fairly good control and accuracy
Pretty good spare shooter
Average - 170ish

Line played - usually stand on 18 and play 2nd arrow bellying ball out a bit on league conditions. Move right and play between 1st and 2nd when oilier.
Bowl on synthetics medium to medium heavy and encounter some carrydown.

I can get the ball to the pocket most of the time but I never seem to have a lot of backend finish and leave a lot of corner pins.

A high school coach watched me bowl about a year or so ago and told me that I should be a 180 average bowler. He said I needed a skid/flip ball that breaks early. What falls into that category and does layout come into play?

Please keep in mind that I throw 13# equipment so my selection is somewhat limited.

I'm currently using a 13# Blade Solid Reactive. It was originally drilled with pin above the ring and CG kicked way out. The ball flared out way too much and broke too early. We then polished it up which brought it under better control but it never had a great backend reaction. I spoke to Hammer and they suggested I redrill it. It is now drilled pin above index finger and CG in palm. We took the polish off because it was sliding too much.
I now have more length but even less backend than I had before. Now I'm leaving some 5 pins which were never an issue for me.

Any suggestions or input would be appreciated. Let me know if you need any additional information.

Please forgive me for the overly long post smile
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#18093 - 07/04/04 11:32 PM Re: Speed vs. revs
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
Well the problem is that ball manufacturers no longer put dynamically imbalanced cores in balls less than 14 lbs.. So basically the choices are equal to house balls with different coverstocks. Probably all of them will break mid lane, pretty much like you are describing.

I can get performance out of a light ball only because I understand how to over exaggerate the release and bring the speed/skid up to where it will break late.

If you could move up to 14 lbs, it opens a whole new world in performance balls.

It sounds like all of the balls you mentioned are floor biters, made to get traction in oil. That will put them into an early roll and burn up their energy before they get to the pocket. That also explains the left corners.

I can tell more about your shot from the oil rings left on the ball than I can from the drill pattern. I have a good pro-shop guy that understands drill patterns and I trust him to figure out what I need. I look at the oil lines to tell me what the ball did, rather than try to figure out what it should do. If the results don't match his prediction I take it right back in and we work it out.

If you have to stay with a 13 lb balls, I would suggest a high pollished ball. The Wicked or the Triple x Factor both go long and break late. But without the advantage of the flip blocks in the core, stored energy will still be minimal...

The one thing I think people don't realize is that the energy in the ball has to exceed the total weight of the pins. We tend to think of pins as 3.5 pound objects and the ball as 13... seems like plenty of advantage to the ball.

But there is 10 pins that will absorb the energy from the ball, that means around 36 lbs of pins need to be moved by a 13 lb ball. Now we see the advantage the pins have. The variable in the equation is speed, the pins have none so they are a fixed mass. The balls energy will be mass times motion.

If your worried about an extra pound of weight in the ball you probably shouldn't, unless you have a health issue limiting you to 13 lbs. Most balls will only feel heavy if they are fitted incorrectly. 1 extra pound in a proper fit should go un-noticed by most people.

If you have coach around your area that could come down and watch you play, it would be worth the 20 bucks or so to get him there. He will give you an un-biased professional opinion that will make sense to your ball driller. Might save some money in the long run.

Hope I have been of some help to you...

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#18094 - 07/05/04 12:01 PM Re: Speed vs. revs
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
Coach04-

I've been using 13# equipment for a few years and know about the weight block difference. I research each ball before purchase to make sure that it has the same weight block as the heavier ball.

My Fuel was 14#. I used it last year, was experiencing shoulder pain and tired after 4 games. I went back to 13# at the beginning of this year and the pain went away in a few weeks time. I'm 5'2" - 120 lbs.

Brunswick uses the same block in all their balls down to 12#. I'd really like to give them a try. They have a new mid-priced line that should be coming out soon.

I know now that I need a polished ball. All the high average bowlers have suggested either pearl, polished resin or particle pearl. Which would be better?

Unfortunately, I don't know of any coaches in my area. Does anyone have a recommendation for me in the Long Island, New York area?

Coach04 - Thank you so much for your help.
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LadyLuck

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#18095 - 07/05/04 03:48 PM Re: Speed vs. revs
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
Bowling centers usually keep a list of local coaches, and can recommend someone that matches what you are looking for.

I am not a fan of Brunswick balls, so its hard for me to recommend one. I dont see anything in their core design beyond static imbalance. They are all fairly symetrical, and I don't see any with actual flip blocks.

Kim Adler was a pro with the PWBA, who used Brunswick balls, with great success. But she had some pretty radical drillings to allow her to perform on all the differing conditions. I'm not sure if her drillings were because of the ball, or if she used those drillings in other manufacturers balls as well.

The particle balls have ground glass in their coverstock to help them bite the lane. They usually turn hard when they hit the dry boards, but require some revs to do it. Otherwise they will break mid lane like the others.

The reactive resin balls do pretty well as an all around ball. They are wonderful on medium conditions, and still do pretty well on dry or heavy lanes. Usually adjustments are within 5 boards of your normal line.

It sounds like you are pretty good at doing your research. I would continue to gather some information before making a decision. Check with the center on the coach, and prepare your questions in advance so you don't forget to ask some of them. Be sure he checks your current ball for fit before observing your bowling style. It makes a big difference in the release and the resulting oil lines on the ball.

The real key is getting a ball that matches your swing and style, regardless of who makes it. If you don't have absolute faith in you pro-shop guy, ask some of the other bowlers who they use and why. Usually one or two names will continue to be the top recomendation. Good pro-shop guys develop a solid following amongst bowlers.

If you were near me, I would be happy to meet you on the lanes, but New York is a little far from Texas... smile

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#18096 - 07/05/04 07:17 PM Re: Speed vs. revs
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
I'm still on a quest to find a pro-shop operator who shows some genuine interest in helping someone at my level. Those who I've encountered so far seem to cater only to the more experienced bowlers.

I've asked around at the lanes for help finding a coach but have not had any success.

As you suggested, I'll continue my research and keep asking around for recommendations.

Thanks again for your input and offer smile

I'm planning on buying a new ball for the fall season. I'll let you know if I have any success.
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#18097 - 07/05/04 10:07 PM Re: Speed vs. revs
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
I kind think of myself at being pretty good at this kind if stuff. :-)

Plus I have a teammate that has the exact situation you do, she's 57, about 100 lbs (soaking wet) and been bowling a very long time. Has very good form and is knowledgable about the lanes. However, she's throwing 15lb equipment.

If you could only move up in weight to get to the dynamic core equip....... If you have a habit of not putting your thumb all the way down in the ball (and I"m not saying you do) that will make a ball seem TOO HEAVY. If that scenario fits, then that simple change (in span and fit) may allow the move up to 14. What we've picked for our teammate is taken off her own previous success with the bacic "lightbulb" core design. If you can get this, plus a flip block so much the better (aka cuda and Cuda2000). You do not want a "stabilizer block" no matter what you get. This design was and still is used extensively in bowling equip, from The Beast to Ebonite's new Showtime (these are typically medium to medium/high RG balls). Do not get a low RG ball. Keeping in mind that if you get a low 14, like exactly 14, once you drill it you've taken out a few ounces more of weight. maybe you could get a low or exact 14 that wouldn't be too heavy for you. That "lightbulb" or "fish" core design is very controlable, with the added flip block will give you added hitting power in the back end.

From what you've described, you now have a negatively drilled ball. Which means that the pin is put in a negative position, to the left of the bridge, which delays hook. But in your case its delaying it too much. This would be suitable for "crankers" with tons of back ends on the lanes. Also the CG, if its kicked out too much will inhibit backend, promoting early hook. Best way to go, IMO, would be Pin Out (1 - 1:30), CG near the middle maybe with some positive static weight, you have the lob of the ball to get it down the lane, but still has a lot of back end.

Whatever you do, you want to keep a fresh coat of polish on that ball (as we do for our teammate). This means dropping it off at the Pro Shop to have it applied, not sticking it in a machine before you bowl. The pearl coverstock on balls is not that flexible in how it can be prepared. So I suggest a solid and have it polished.

With this idea in mind, we've brought our own teammate up from the 170s to the 190s, and she's using USED plugged and redrilled equipment.

Erin

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#18098 - 07/06/04 08:41 PM Re: Speed vs. revs
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
Erin -

My Fuel was exactly 14# before drilling. It didn't actually feel too heavy when I was throwing it. The main problem was that I was getting shoulder pain. I know that performance wise I'd be better off with 14# but I'm not willing to take the chance again.

I know what you mean about those light bulb cores. There are several bowlers on my ladies league that have the original Red Predator and that ball has great backend reaction for all the bowlers no matter what their style.

I scanned Ebonite's website and it appears that the Showtime is not the same at 13# the differential goes way down at that weight. There doesn't appear to be anything similar offered by the other companies in 13#.

I bowl in a ladies league and have the opportunity to see a lot of lighter weight equipment in action. I'm really impressed by the Brunswick hit and carry even at 12#. There's one woman who has an old 13# Quantum and that ball still hits like a Mack truck. They have some new balls coming out this month and I'm going to look into them.

I'd also like to take a closer look at the Storm line.

Thanks for the information on the drilling layouts. I'll check into your suggestion and keep what you said in mind when purchasing my next ball.

Thank you again for your input.
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LadyLuck

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#18099 - 07/07/04 11:20 AM Re: Speed vs. revs
joel Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 626
A/S/L: morton grove,il
coach 04

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