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#179393 - 06/29/13 09:20 AM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: 56bird]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: RickSchott
Was my sense of the lanes "tightening up" in part (or entirely?) due to the ball polishing up during the set?

That realization is exactly what got me experimenting with different surfaces. On Scorpion, with 1000 dull, after 2 games it seemed the lanes tightened up and the ball started bouncing off rather than driving through the pins. On the same pattern, using the same ball, but with 250 dull and cleaning the ball after each game, instead the lanes opened up rather than tighten up. For the sake of the experiment, 250 dull was likely too much surface, but the difference in ball reaction was unmistakable.

The lessons learned for me, especially after watching the surface scanner video and studying the Ra/Rs charts, are:
1) Whatever the target grit, to sand the ball rougher and get at least one game practice with the ball to stabilize the surface prior to competition.
2) The rougher the surface, the more frequent the maintenance required, much sooner than I previously expected.
3) Skip some of the in between grit/polish combinations to get a different finished surface on different equipment.
4) Always use a towel after each shot, and pack a bottle of ball cleaner and paper towels to clean the ball after each game when the lanes are tight.
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#179395 - 06/29/13 11:47 AM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
After posting the above, I got to thinking there ought to be a way, as a final step in resurfacing a ball, something that can be done in the shop, to eliminate the need to roll a game to stabilize the surface without substantially changing it. Hmm, I need to think about that some more...
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#179400 - 06/29/13 03:00 PM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Well, I thought of something to try as a final step to simulate bowling a game or two with a newly refinished ball to help stabilize the surface so it is ready for competition. A while back, I bought a box of white Scotch-Brite. They are labeled Light Duty Cleansing Pads, and are supposed to be the equivalent of 1000-1200 grit. However, when I used them on a bowling ball, they did not seem to remove any material, or even make an abrasive sound. I set them aside because they appeared useless. Now, I am thinking they might be just the thing to reproduce the effect of bowling a game or two on the spinner without substantially changing the surface. It's worth a try since I am not using them for anything else. Other suggestions are welcome.
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#179417 - 06/30/13 10:35 AM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: Joe Bowler]
BOSStull Offline
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Registered: 10/15/11
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Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
I found this product video to be enlightening concerning surface degradation.



Hey Joe,
This excerpt below was taken out of 2004 BRONZE CERTIFICATION BOWLING BALL PARTS AND DYNAMICS. I can see if nothing is done to the ball surface it will migrate to a level of grit depending on the lanes. I do not know what type of lanes this info was based on but 600 grit seems low and would suspect wood lanes. I watched this video and the ball grit is increasing on the PRO ANVILANE at way higher rate grit than indicated in this excerpt. Joe, do you have any info on what grit the bowling ball surfaces will migrate to on different lane types? I am especially interested in the Brunswick PRO Lanes. I did find a surface hardness chart but it only tells which ones have the harder surfaces. I may need to rethink my ball surface maintenance strategy especially on my balls that are sanded at a lower grit.


(Naturally, the sharp peaks created by sanding eventually will wear smooth, causing a slow change in the traction. Eventually, the ball will require sanding again to regain its previous surface roughness. As the sanded grooves in the ball wear due to use, the surface roughness will approach the equivalent of sanding a ball with 600 grit sandpaper. A ball sanded with 320-grit sandpaper gradually will lose some of its hook as the surface approaches the equivalent of 600 grit. It should be noted that using higher grit (1500 and higher) is super fine sand paper that will actually create a smooth surface ball. A ball sanded very smooth with higher grit sandpaper eventually will hook more as the ballís surface gets scratched due to wear in the ball track. Again, this ball eventually will hook the equivalent of sanding with 600 grit sandpaper if the surface is not restored.)

SURFACE HARDNESS
(SWARD ROCKER)
Glass 100
Pro Lane
(Brunswick)
68-74
HPL 9000 or SPL
(AMF)
56-63
Wood (coated with
urethane base)
56-62
Wood (coated with
water-base)
14-20
Guardian 4-7
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#179424 - 06/30/13 06:02 PM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: BOSStull]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: BOSStull
Joe, do you have any info on what grit the bowling ball surfaces will migrate to on different lane types?

I wish I had more info to share. The surface scanner video was eye-opening for me. Previously, I would have guessed 1000-1200 to be the grit that bowling balls migrate to. But, it appears to be much higher, at least on the low-friction Brunswick Pro Anvilane surface they used for the test. More friction suggests more wear, so the migration is probably quicker and rougher on higher friction surfaces like wood.

I think the ball coverstock material is probably a factor, too. For example, if 3 different balls were all sanded with fresh 1000 grit sandpaper, I would guess they still have different Ra/Rs values depending on their chemistry. So, there is likely to be some variance in the grit that each ball wants to migrate to, as well.

For maintenance purposes, I am thinking of using a simple formula, target grit divided by 100, to determine how many games before resurfacing a ball. For example:
400 grit / 100 = 4 games
1000 grit / 100 = 10 games
2000 grit / 100 = 20 games
4000 grit / 100 = 40 games
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#179428 - 06/30/13 08:28 PM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: Joe Bowler]
rrb6699 (RayRay) Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 513
A/S/L: Single/male/FL
that would be an interesting area to research if it has not been done yet. I'm thinking it's a bit more complex. I'd say each coverstock's friction (wear) properties vary. What would be the reason to resurface at such intervals-- To maintain the original surface texture?

I'm just learning about this stuff, but, things like oil absorption, lane surface (you mention it) e.g. friction encountered, number of games bowled - would have to be monitored. I would say every 10 games could be a good baseline to take readings of differences in the track area to see what migration occurred.

The starting grit used would need to be recorded, the coverstock material needs to be recorded, then the rev rate of the bowler would affect how many total revolutions the ball rolled during the 10 games.

Forgive me for my attempt at a scientific approach, but, off the top of my head, these would be some of the criteria needed to make an accurate assessment of migration.

For example, for me after answering the Brunswick survey to find out optimal surface friction for my bowler type i fell into the following 3 categories based upon how my points added up:

10 points: 1000-grit Abralon Pad or Powerhouse Matte Finish Polish
9 points: 500-grit Abralon Pad, followed by 2000-grit Abralon Pad
8 points: 1000-grit Abralon Pad, followed by 2000-grit Abralon Pad

The only thing that changed the points for me was the target lane condition. So, I may be able to assume the 500-grit Abralon followed by 2000-grit Abralon would be the most versatile for me. the survey parameters seem a little slam-dunk, but, again i'm just learning about this stuff about surface friction. Tell me how you come out.

Here's the link:
http://ebonite.com/images/uploads/drill_instructions/H5380_CTNS-026_Symmetric_core.pdf

r/r


Edited by rrb6699 (RayRay) (06/30/13 08:29 PM)

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#179431 - 06/30/13 09:38 PM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
RayRay, my range on the Ebonite chart was 9-11 points depending on the lane condition.
11 points (heavy): 800-grit wet sandpaper
10 points (medium): 1000-grit Abralon Pad or Powerhouse Matte Finish Polish
9 points (light): 500-grit Abralon Pad, followed by 2000-grit Abralon Pad

That's pretty close to what I worked out in the link below, but my strategy is a little different, having wider upper and lower limits to better match my equipment and the various conditions I bowl. In any case, the Ebonite chart is a good starting point for those who have not previously considered adjusting ball surface.
http://www.bowlingcommunity.com/b/ubbthr...html#Post179380

After seeing what a surface scanner could do, it is definitely on my wish list, now. I think that would answer a lot of questions, and enable a more scientific approach. In the meantime, the above are my current thoughts based on my experience and the research available. The reason for resurfacing at regular intervals would be to retain the desired target surface (not necessarily OOB) and the accompanying ball reaction.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

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Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#179443 - 07/01/13 10:56 PM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: Joe Bowler]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1181
A/S/L: 62/M /Georgia
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler


For maintenance purposes, I am thinking of using a simple formula, target grit divided by 100, to determine how many games before resurfacing a ball. For example:
400 grit / 100 = 4 games
1000 grit / 100 = 10 games
2000 grit / 100 = 20 games
4000 grit / 100 = 40 games

Looks like a good plan to me.
_________________________
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HG 300,
HS 811
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#179785 - 07/25/13 12:42 PM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: Joe Bowler]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1181
A/S/L: 62/M /Georgia
Well its been 3 weeks since I commented on this thread. I adopted a couple of thinks mentioned on this thread. First move I made was to lower the grit on my Terminator Resurrection and The New Standard. I ended up hitting both with a worn burgundy pad so grit is probably more than 500 but less than 800. I started with the NS and haven't used anything else since. After each set I clean and dull with the burgundy pad. I had problems with carry before the move but not anymore at least with this ball. Averaged 232 last 3 weeks in league bowling THS heavy oil in the middle. I also threw my TR before the start of bowling and it did well but I felt the NS was the better choice. The NS has been the go to ball lately.

I Adopted your resurfacing plan Joe. Not really a resurface but dulling the ball with a burgundy pad after 4-5 games is working well for the NS.

My score on the Ebonite chart was 9-11 points depending on the lane condition also.
11 points (heavy): 800-grit wet sandpaper
10 points (medium): 1000-grit Abralon Pad or Powerhouse Matte Finish polish
9 points (light): 500-grit Abralon Pad, followed by 2000-grit Abralon Pad

My balls are close to my score.In the Bag right now
15lb.L/M Terminator Resurrection, Endurance P2 Dual Particle, Dull 500- 800 RG 2.56 Differential 0.040 Medium Heavy-Heavy
16lb.L/M The New Standard, Particle, Dull 500-800, RG Min 2.528 RG Max 2.576 Differential 0.048 Medium- Medium Heavy
15lb.L/M Buzz Premium Edition, Venom Hybrid Reactive Particle,1200 Matte RG 2.549 Differential 0.031 Medium
15lb L/M Hornet, Reactive Pearl, Polished, RG Min 2.555 RG Max 2.586 Differential 0.031 Light Oil
_________________________
current average 207
HG 300,
HS 811
https://www.pinterest.com/bosstull/

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#179786 - 07/25/13 02:38 PM Re: Minimum Sandpaper Grit? [Re: Joe Bowler]
sk8shorty01 Offline
Virtual League Champion x2

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5163
A/S/L: 30/M/Merritt Island, FL
Joe do you have any idea how much the surface scanners cost?

It would be nice if Jayhawk had some pricing on their website so you don't have to send emails for everything you might be considering.
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