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#179185 - 06/21/13 12:02 PM Thumb weight / Finger weight question
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1181
A/S/L: 62/M /Georgia
I have a Terminator Resurrection that I got used. The span was correct layout suited me and had good results with the ball. When I bought it had a switch grip and my Pro Shop dropped a thumb slug in the switch grip. All was well. Ball reaction was good with good backend. Later on the thumb slug slipped down then a circular crack was developing around the thumb so I had my Pro Shop remove the switch grip, repair, plug, then redrill the thumbhole in a smaller thumb slug. Ball seems to roll earlier with less backend now. I noticed yesterday the finger holes were drilled deeper than usual about 3 in. Ball does not have a balance hole.

I know finger weight will make the ball go longer down the lane and have more backend reaction and thumb weight makes the ball roll sooner and have more of a smoother arc when it starts to hook.

Now for the question. Is the extra thumb weight from removing the larger switch grip and plugging causing the difference in reaction? Is this change in weight enough to make a difference? Will plugging the fingers and redrilling make a difference?
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#179188 - 06/21/13 12:37 PM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: BOSStull]
Joe Bowler Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
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The changes in differential and intermediate differential are more likely the cause of any perceived difference in ball reaction rather than the changes in finger/thumb weight.

In brief, every hole drilled in the ball reshapes the core to some degree. While finger/thumb weight can affect the roll of a ball, a dynamic core generates forces that often overshadow that effect.

When drilling a ball, the goal should be to get all the forces working together to produce the desired ball reaction. For that reason, I try to avoid drilling the fingers deeper than 1-1/4 inches. Typically, the pin is near the fingers, so drilling the fingers deeper means removing a portion of the top of the core. That typically reduces ball performance, and is not recommended, but I find it a common practice among pro shops. Conversely, drilling the thumb deeper, especially when it is 6-3/4 inches from the Pin, removes a portion of the side of the core. That improves ball performance by increasing differential and intermediate differential.

Without knowing all the details concerning the ball, your grip, the layout, etc., that would be my guess concerning the difference in ball reaction. Concerning plugging the ball, be aware the plug material is a uniform density, so it is unlikely to restore the core to its original mass.
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#179190 - 06/21/13 12:53 PM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: BOSStull]
sk8shorty01 Offline
Virtual League Champion x2

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5163
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I think Joe broke it down pretty well but I actually change my finger depths based on where I want the location of the core to be in relation to my grip lines. In my Reign of Power and Marvel-S I have the pin way above the fingers (2.5-3" above) and the cg is about 3/4" to the right of my ring finger. Because of the layout I went deep with my fingers (3.5") to pull out some of the excess finger weight. This allowed me to clip the top of the weight block off but also meant I was able to go with a smaller weight hole, lower on my VAL line so that I didn't take a big chunk of the side of the core out.

Some times, with specific layouts you have to go deeper with the fingers in order to produce a condition specific reaction. Just wanted to add that for those that might be curious.
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#179191 - 06/21/13 01:04 PM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: sk8shorty01]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: sk8shorty01
I think Joe broke it down pretty well but I actually change my finger depths based on where I want the location of the core to be in relation to my grip lines. In my Reign of Power and Marvel-S I have the pin way above the fingers (2.5-3" above) and the cg is about 3/4" to the right of my ring finger. Because of the layout I went deep with my fingers (3.5") to pull out some of the excess finger weight. This allowed me to clip the top of the weight block off but also meant I was able to go with a smaller weight hole, lower on my VAL line so that I didn't take a big chunk of the side of the core out.

Some times, with specific layouts you have to go deeper with the fingers in order to produce a condition specific reaction. Just wanted to add that for those that might be curious.

Sk8, if your goal was to reduce the ball's hook potential, that was likely accomplished by removing mass from the top of the core, and not removing mass from the side of the core. For guys with higher rev rates, that is one way to control the amount of hook from a high performance ball. As a stroker, I typically want all the hook the ball has to offer. Having a particular layout in mind often means planning ahead to order a specific Pin to CG distance so that the hole depths and balance hole depth/location matches the desired ball reaction.

For illustrative purposes, see the following sequence of screen shots from Blueprint.
1. Undrilled Columbia Oath 3-inch Pin. Similar specs to Marvel-S. Similar to described layout.
2. Drilled Columbia Oath 3-inch Pin. Note excess finger weight.
3. Drilled Columbia Oath 3-inch Pin. Went deeper with fingers to remove excess finger weight. Note change in Int Diff and Overall Diff.
4. Drilled Columbia Oath 4-inch Pin. Static legal with normal finger depth. Compare Int Diff and Overall Diff with above.


Attachments
01_Undrilled Columbia Oath_3 Inch Pin.jpg

02_Drilled Columbia Oath_3 Inch Pin_Excess Finger Weight.jpg

03_Drilled Columbia Oath_3 Inch Pin_Deeper Fingers.jpg

04_Drilled Columbia Oath_4 Inch Pin_Legal.jpg


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Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#179194 - 06/21/13 02:55 PM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: Joe Bowler]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1181
A/S/L: 62/M /Georgia
Thanks Joe for the info. I understand what you are saying but the only change was at the thumb plugging and redrilling in the same spot. The additional weight would only be filler around the new slug by whatever the difference in diameter of the switch grip ball. So the only difference is the added weight and plug material at the thumb hole. No real changes to the core at the fingers or thumb but there is a noticeable difference in reaction.



Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Conversely, drilling the thumb deeper, especially when it is 6-3/4 inches from the Pin, removes a portion of the side of the core. That improves ball performance by increasing differential and intermediate differential.
With the switch grip being removed and plugged may have the opposite effect you are talking about here since it would be in the side of this core.
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler

Without knowing all the details concerning the ball, your grip, the layout, etc., that would be my guess concerning the difference in ball reaction. Concerning plugging the ball, be aware the plug material is a uniform density, so it is unlikely to restore the core to its original mass.



As I said I bought used so the I did not have a choice in this layout. I only noticed the deep ring finger drilling when I switched the grips the other day and I got to wondering why it was so deep. Here is a link of a video of the exact ball and layout and the reaction I was pretty much getting before the plug work. The ball in the video is my ball now but the bowler is not me. I am a stroker maybe a little more speed and revs than the person in the video. The link starts at the specs of the ball, then the exact layout, and then the reaction of the ball with the previous owner bowling with it.






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#179195 - 06/21/13 03:49 PM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: BOSStull]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Bosstull, do you have the weights before and after re-drilling? Is there any chance the Pro Shop might have done something to clean/restore the ball surface while it was in the shop?
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
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House: 239
Sport: 210

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Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
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Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#179197 - 06/21/13 04:15 PM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: Joe Bowler]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1181
A/S/L: 62/M /Georgia
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Bosstull, do you have the weights before and after re-drilling? Is there any chance the pro shop might have done something to clean/restore the ball surface while it was in the shop?
No I do not have the weights before and after and only noticed a little polish around where they did the thumb work.
_________________________
current average 209
HG 300,
HS 811
https://www.pinterest.com/bosstull/

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#179199 - 06/21/13 04:20 PM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: BOSStull]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: BOSStull
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Bosstull, do you have the weights before and after re-drilling? Is there any chance the pro shop might have done something to clean/restore the ball surface while it was in the shop?
No I do not have the weights before and after and only noticed a little polish around where they did the thumb work.

Yeah, it's hard to say exactly what caused the difference in reaction. We can only speculate based on typical assumptions.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#179201 - 06/21/13 04:36 PM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: Joe Bowler]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1181
A/S/L: 62/M /Georgia
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Originally Posted By: BOSStull
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Bosstull, do you have the weights before and after re-drilling? Is there any chance the pro shop might have done something to clean/restore the ball surface while it was in the shop?
No I do not have the weights before and after and only noticed a little polish around where they did the thumb work.

Yeah, it's hard to say exactly what caused the difference in reaction. We can only speculate based on typical assumptions.


I have always kept the surface close to OOB so I might do a little experimenting with a higher grit surface and polish and see what happens.
_________________________
current average 209
HG 300,
HS 811
https://www.pinterest.com/bosstull/

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#179387 - 06/29/13 06:26 AM Re: Thumb weight / Finger weight question [Re: BOSStull]
BOSStull Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 1181
A/S/L: 62/M /Georgia
Hey Joe you pointed me in the right direction. Needed a surface adjustment. I took my worn maroon pad and did a good hand sanding with it. Maroon is a little worn so not the grit it should be along with a good cleaning of the surface. I don't have a spinner but sure do need one. I going to get the Pro Shop hit it back to OOB 800 no polish before I bowl again with it again. The P2 Endurance seems to be a softer solid cover stock than my diamond particle New Standard and I guess over time lane friction changed it to a higher grit surface.

It was just coincidence with the plugging. I did an experiment with the deep finger hole and temporarily added about 2 ounces of weight to it below the grips and it really had no effect that is noticeable.
_________________________
current average 209
HG 300,
HS 811
https://www.pinterest.com/bosstull/

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