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#177534 - 03/26/13 01:53 PM Handicap League Sub Questions
Scott Gannon Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 967
A/S/L: 51/M/California
I have 2 questions regarding subs in a handicap league:

1. Does your league have any rules as to if a sub is bowling for your team, their established average has to be no more than a certain amount of pins over the bowler they are subbing for? (For example if the absent person is averaging 135 then the person subbing for them cannot have an average more than 25 pins over that bowlers average, so only a 160 average bowler or lower could sub for that person).

2. Does your league have any limit on how many times any individual can sub? There is a sub on our league who has not missed a week (He has bowled for various teams but many times for the same team).
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Fall 2012-2013-League Average-181, HG-237, HS-624
Summer 2013-League Average-189, HG-245, HS-653
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#177535 - 03/26/13 02:06 PM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: Scott Gannon
I have 2 questions regarding subs in a handicap league:
1. Does your league have any rules as to if a sub is bowling for your team, their established average has to be no more than a certain amount of pins over the bowler they are subbing for? (For example if the absent person is averaging 135 then the person subbing for them cannot have an average more than 25 pins over that bowlers average, so only a 160 average bowler or lower could sub for that person).


My current league does not. About 6 or 7 years ago I did bowl in a league for a couple of seasons that did have a rule like that. The first season a sub had to be within 20 pins of the average for the normal bowler. The second season the wording had changed, but not by a vote in the organizational meeting we had at the beginning of the season. It was changed to a sub couldn't be more that 20 pins under the normal bowler.

While the second version I can understand, as people are wary of someone bringing in someone with a low entering average but currently bowls well over that average or even a sandbagger. I didn't like either variation though, it sometimes made it limited to who a team could find to sub for them for a particular person.

Originally Posted By: Scott Gannon
2. Does your league have any limit on how many times any individual can sub? There is a sub on our league who has not missed a week (He has bowled for various teams but many times for the same team).


Nope and I don't think I have ever been in a league that did. Sure they might not let subs bowl position round but never limit the amount of times a sub can bowl. I do know some leagues require roster bowlers only and no roving subs as the one you described. There is actually a sub like that in my league. Not sure if he has bowled every week but he is normally out there and with a league of 200+ bowlers someones is bound to not be able to show up and not pre-bowl.
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#177542 - 03/26/13 03:51 PM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
Fin09 Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 1159
A/S/L: 51/M/Virginia Beach, VA
No, and no. Both of my leagues are roster leagues, so no floating subs. My only experience in limiting the average of a sub was in a scratch league, where the sub could not cause your team to exceed the entering average cap.
Since it's a handicap league, the sub's avg plus handicap will be within that 25 pin cushion of your regular team member's avg plus handicap 90% or more of the time. Not really sure why you'd want to place that kind of limit on a sub situation.
I've never seen a league place a limit on the number of times someone can sub. There have been occasions where a teammate of mine called at the last minute and couldn't make it. I was glad that the regular assortment of subs was milling around at the counter. I know they're usually there to bowl for free, but they're also doing teams favors by bowling, so I don't have a problem most of the time.
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#177583 - 03/27/13 10:18 AM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 801
A/S/L: 38/M/New Jersey
My league is yes (sort of) to question 1 and no to question 2. The reason I say sort of to question 1 is because any sub who bowls on a position round must have subbed at least 9 games in the league and have an average in that league based off of those 9 games. Even if the bowler has a current average from another league at that house, has bowled at the house for many years and is known by everyone there, they can't sub on a position night if they have not subbed 9 games beforehand. Any other night would be fine. Note, this is not a money league and that money leagues at the same house do not have such a rule. From what I know, at some time someone in the league felt like they got cheated and this rule has stood ever since. Oh, and it used to be 21 games until it was changed a few seasons ago.

Mark
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#177600 - 03/27/13 01:28 PM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
going4broke Offline
Junior

Registered: 12/10/12
Posts: 24
A/S/L: M
In my four leagues, three of them allow anyone to sub regardles of average (except postion round where two of them have strict rules of no subs allowed during position round) and the fourth league doesn't allow subs and only roster members can bowl. As long as the average is legit, I don't see any problem with a sub bowling regardless if his average is higher or lower than the one he is subbing for.

As for the second part of your question, I know full-time subs who bowl in one league that just show up and bowl on whatever team that needs them. They just go home otherwise and will skip position round since they are not allowed to bowl in PR. This summer I have decided not to join two leagues, but will sub for any team that needs me. I will just show up, see if anyone wants a sub and if not just go home or maybe practice a few games before going home.

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#177609 - 03/27/13 04:50 PM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
slowdown Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/20/10
Posts: 53
A/S/L: 60/m/junction city, ks
Each league have thier own bylaws, what is not covered then refer to usbc rules. USBC has stated this year on an update rule
sub cannot bowl position rounds. A league can adopt rules what you are referring to.
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#177615 - 03/27/13 07:57 PM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
I bowl in a scratch league, a sub cannot have a book average more than 5 pins over the bowler they are subbing for. If it were up to me it would be "all good" so long as team average cap was not exceeded, but it's not.

I don't believe there is any rule limiting how often they can sub and I've seen subs on position night <shrugs>

Slightly OT but I went to practice one thursday night and there were no lanes available. I asked around at the men's league and found a team I could sub for. I was told during practice that "subs pay $12 to bowl". Apparently this goes into the prize fund kitty. I shot 720 and haven't gone back.
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#177837 - 04/02/13 02:33 PM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
Scott Gannon Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 967
A/S/L: 51/M/California
The issues of subs does not really bother me but it really gets to my team. I have been trying for years to get them out of the mindset that just because a team has someone with a really high average it does not mean they are going to win. I even point out when we win against teams like that but it does no good because the next week if there is a high average sub or anchor they comment how we are going to lose. I hate that mindset of defeat before you have even started. Luckily it does not seem to affect their bowling and most of the time we do all right.
_________________________
Summer 2012-League Average-179, HG-224, HS-595
Fall 2012-2013-League Average-181, HG-237, HS-624
Summer 2013-League Average-189, HG-245, HS-653
Fall 2013-14-League Average-178, HG-228, HS-631

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#177842 - 04/02/13 04:06 PM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
Dennis Michael Online   jestera
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9734
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
We have NO subs in all of the leagues I bowl in (3). Instead, we go by USBC rules for Rostered bowlers. Each team has a roster of bowlers and those bowlers can only bowl for that team. Rolloff or position round rules are league rules. All bowlers are eligible to bowl in position rounds or rolloffs if they have bowled in 12 league games in the first half or 18 games by the second half.

These bowlers can be used in an way by the team, and the lineup can change every league night. Some teams rotate bowlers, others us alternates only when there is an absent bowler.

Some teams require the extra bowlers to pay, while others do not. That is a team decision. It's dependent on how the prize fund is to be divided.
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#177992 - 04/09/13 10:25 AM Re: Handicap League Sub Questions [Re: Scott Gannon]
SteveH Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 766
A/S/L: 62/M/Burlington VT
We also have rostered subs in both of my mixed leagues. You can only sub same [censored] in one league, doesn't matter in the other. There are no average rules, but one league changed their handicapping this year to 90% of 240.

Unfortunately sea had some teams that had a nasty habit of bringing in the ringers towards the last 12-14 weeks of the year. They generally subbed for high handicappers that hardly ever broke their averages by meaningful amounts. The one team only sub rule has worked well. Some of these same players, usually very low to zero handicaps, would actually sabotage teams the subbed for earlier in the season to mid-season. I had no idea this was going on, and was told only after a 10 handicap sub for our team rolled a 495 one night for us. He said he just had a Terrible Night. LOL

We've found the lesser of two evils approach is to be a little more liberal in pre-bowling. Not a perfect setup, but combined with the new sub rules, it has evened the leagues out a bit. Pretty sad you have to enact these types of rules, but such is life.
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