BowlingFans.com, The site for the fans, by the fans....
Sponsored Links




ChatBox:

Sponsored Links


Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#172214 - 10/17/12 09:55 AM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Joe Bowler]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9735
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
The cover is the key for me. As seen, I have different covers for different reactions on conditions. I don't want to change surfaces, as I bowl at different centers with different oil patterns. And, what works on 1 pattern doesn't work on another. So, all balls are as close to OOB condition as they can be.

Other variables would be the line used and targeting. But, most importantly would be the ball rotation. I have what would be described as a med+ rev, forward roll release. My hand at release is no more then 20 degrees turned. I have very little side rotation. The ball does the work. If I have a problem, it would be to release with too flat of a hand.

The low side rotation reduces flare, so that's not an impact to me. In fact, certain balls cause me to add side rotation to maximize the ball, and that usually causes trouble with my game. That is why I stay away from assymetrical balls, as that is when I experience that dreaded over/under.

I also find that the forward roll works for a high track bowler. My oil rings will be within 2 inches of my thumb and tightly bunched. I can count 16+ oil rings, so I know the revs are there. I just have little flare, and don't wish to have it.

Joe, FYI, I use L/M recommended Label Leverage Drilling. When I checked it to a dual angle drilling, it booked out at 65x2 1/2x 25
_________________________
LM - Black Diamond 15#
Lord Field - Exodus Pearl 15#
Legends - L/M New Terminator 15#
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




Top
#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links Online   content
Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
Top
#172217 - 10/17/12 10:25 AM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Dennis Michael]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Joe, FYI, I use L/M recommended Label Leverage Drilling. When I checked it to a dual angle drilling, it booked out at 65x2 1/2x 25

Understood. The 2-1/2 versus 3-3/8 inches Pin to PAP reduces track flare, which aligns well with your goals. In general, your description of your strategy, equipment, and release sound very Walter Ray like, and we all know how successful he was and is.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#172279 - 10/19/12 09:12 AM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
After doing some more research, I would like to suggest upper and lower limits to further refine the specs to consider when putting together your arsenal. That should help narrow the choices and provide incremental differences in ball reaction.

High RG = 2.55 to 2.65 = less revs, more length
Low RG = 2.44 to 2.54 = more revs, less length

High Diff = .050 to .060 = more flare, more hook
Low Diff = .039 to .049 = less flare, less hook

Below would be some optimum RG, Diff combinations and their expected usage:
Low RG: 2.45, High Diff: .060 - 6" track flare - longer, heavier oil
Med RG: 2.55, Med Diff: .050 - 5" track flare - medium oil, benchmark ball
High RG: 2.65, Low Diff: .040 - 4" track flare - shorter, lighter oil

Of course, you still want coverstocks, surface prep, and layouts that match the purpose for each ball in your arsenal.

Note: USBC determines limits on RG and Diff, and are subject to change at any time. However, older balls are typically grandfathered in. The current RG minimum since July 2010 is 2.46; before that it was 2.43. The current Diff maximum is .060.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#172283 - 10/19/12 10:37 AM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Joe Bowler]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9735
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
And, this is all dependant on the typical lane surface you bowl on. I bowled Tues on that heavy oil shot and Thurs on a second shift league with used shot at another house.

My ball selection was completely different on each. On the heavy oil, my Widow maker rolled the best, but I couldn't keep it right on the used shot. It was so bad, that even my pearl cover checked up in midlane. Ended rolling my Hornet and Spare ball on alternating lanes.

Result, no finish, few strikes, and lower scores.

I will also add that those who scored better used a more severe side rotation where the ball slid longer. Not my game.
_________________________
LM - Black Diamond 15#
Lord Field - Exodus Pearl 15#
Legends - L/M New Terminator 15#
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




Top
#172285 - 10/19/12 11:16 AM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Dennis Michael]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Quote:
It was so bad, that even my pearl cover checked up in midlane.

That's the funny thing about pearl reactive resin. In terms of friction, it typically generates less on oil, and more on dry than other balls. As a result, on a well-oiled shot with clean backends, they tend to generate more entry angle and better carry for higher scores. But, when the lanes are truly dry, and the hold is gone, or on a shorter pattern, at a time when you want to decrease friction, they actually increase friction, making it difficult to control the breakpoint, and to get the ball down the lane.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#177425 - 03/24/13 08:03 AM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Oops, I believe I was wrong in my original thoughts concerning RG. That's what I get for basing my strategy at the time on conventional wisdom instead of personal observation, analysis, and experience.

Now, I am persuaded to match RG to the vertical length of the pattern (higher RG to longer pattern), Diff to the horizontal area of play on the lane (higher Diff to deeper inside), and coverstock friction to the volume of oil (more surface to more oil).

Concerning RG, my evolution in thought has to do with timing the release of energy and controlling the breakpoint. The traditional line of thinking is to try to force the ball further down the lane with a higher RG on a shorter pattern, and to try to force the ball to hook earlier with a lower RG on a longer pattern. In my experience, that just doesn't work out so well. On the shorter pattern, the higher RG ball is harder to control the breakpoint. On the longer pattern, the lower RG ball expends its energy too early and hits the pocket weaker.

On the other hand, when you use a higher RG ball on a longer pattern, the ball holds its line and saves its energy for a bigger move at the end of the pattern. It requires you to line up tighter and deeper, but that is where you should be playing the longer pattern anyway to maximize your mistake area.

Similarly, on a shorter pattern, when you use a lower RG ball, the ball revs up easier and starts hooking sooner. This requires you to move further outside with a steeper angle to your target. That is where you should be playing a shorter pattern anyway to maximize your mistake area.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#177427 - 03/24/13 09:04 AM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: RickSchott
A heavy oil ball does not puke on Shark because the pattern is long. It is not because of RG either. It is because, Shark is medium volume. Best bet is to use a medium-oil bowling ball on medium volume. This is why I said, I would not necessarily use my Taboo (strongest ball in my bag these days), I'd use the Mission to start which is not really a super-aggressive ball (being a pearl, and all...)

The pattern is long. That means, there is less distance from the point the ball sees friction (the end of the pattern) to the pocket. You MUST play to a breakpoint nearer the pocket, the ball will not have time to cover a lot of boards once it finally makes a move. However, my high RG gear DELAYS HOOK vs my lower RG gear, all other things being equal. You don't need to be a physics major to understand this, you can see it with your eyes, just by rolling the bowling balls back-to-back. On Shark, I don't want that. It might be the one place the Track 503C I was complaining about would really shine (especially if I don't polish it, har).

The quoted article states that heavy oil balls are great for short oil because they expend energy early and that is good. That's not Joe's fault (not his article nor his link) but he states that lower RG balls are no good for long patterns because... they expend energy early. You can understand my confusion.

It seems like every bowling ball "review" on youtube states "the pearlized ball is more angular". Well, it is... except when it's NOT. What? Well, take of my favorites, Roto Grip Bandit and Roto Grip Berserk. 1st is pearl, second is hybrid, identical cores (with near identical layouts). On an oily condition, the pearl can skid right through the break point. Meanwhile, the hybrid has enough traction to hook and roll in time. In my book the hybrid is more "angular" than the pearl in that situation, if only because the pearl ran out of lane.

Rick, I think part of the confusion is differentiating longer versus heavier oil. Concerning the volume of oil, I believe you have to match the cover to the friction available. If a pearl ball is skidding through the breakpoint, it is more likely because it has no traction than because of its RG value.

I agree with your statement that higher RG gear delays hook, and the physics behind that. I believe the fallacy in traditional thinking is that delaying hook is the best strategy for playing a shorter pattern (and vice-versa). The shorter pattern wants to hook early. Why fight it? I say give the lane what it wants and line up to take advantage.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#177442 - 03/24/13 01:38 PM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Joe Bowler]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler

Rick, I think part of the confusion is differentiating longer versus heavier oil. Concerning the volume of oil, I believe you have to match the cover to the friction available. If a pearl ball is skidding through the breakpoint, it is more likely because it has no traction than because of its RG value.


First of all, great idea moving the conversation over here, and thanks for doing the heavy lifting.

The point I made about pearl skid vs hybrid roll is exactly as you restated. Again it was a derail to a derail, I shouldn't have muddied the waters with it.

Right on, on the confusion between length and volume. This is what I didn't like about the bowlingball.com article. Without saying so, it assumes the long pattern is lighter volume and the short pattern is heavy volume. As I've said, I would not open up with my heavy oil ball (Taboo) on Shark, Shark is medium VOLUME.

Conversely, Cheetah is the shortest of the named animal patterns (at least the current ones). I believe it is also the heaviest or among the heaviest. I want a heavier-oil ball here, but with a tamer drilling (not so much flare potential). I don't know that there is a hard-and-fast rule regarding drilling though, it depends on the bowler (low rev might want a stronger drilling, high rev might want a tamer drilling). I have to be honest, I don't really own a ball for Cheetah right now (being a tweener or power stroker) as my heavy-oil gear flares pretty hard. For me I might try my Mission again but with more surface (at least it's pin-down), or my Roto Grip Shout with lots of surface (at least it's a lower differential ball with a tame pin-up drilling). Even my Natural might work down the ditch, depending on overall friction. It rolls up early when it sees friction and is just so tame.

I've been somewhat critical of the PBA League's choice in oil pattern. It's 50 ft(!), at least it was on the first show. My beef with it is, bowlers at home watch and think "I can hook the ball more than that!". Well sure you can, friction is your friend and at your home center, they give you some. It is instructive though, at least I think it is.

Barnes- Columbia Enigma RG 2.50 diff .052 Smith Marvel Pearl RG 2.48 diff .050, Stu Williams Defiant Soul RG 2.49 diff .054 Monacelli Marvel Pearl Bohr Mission 250k? RG 2.49 diff .050 Choogs DV8 Diva RG 2.516, diff .052 Blanchard Mass Eruption? RG 2.46, diff .040 Duke Marvel Pearl Barrett Marvel Pearl


Action starts around 4:36


Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler

I agree with your statement that higher RG gear delays hook, and the physics behind that. I believe the fallacy in traditional thinking is that delaying hook is the best strategy for playing a shorter pattern (and vice-versa). The shorter pattern wants to hook early. Why fight it? I say give the lane what it wants and line up to take advantage.


I half agree with this statement. I feel like using high RG on long patterns would exacerbate the problem (late friction on the lane plus late reaction= skidding through pin deck). On the other hand I agree that using a high RG, skid-flippy ball on a short pattern is a recipe for disaster.

I really feel that controlling DIFF on the short, heavy pattern, depending on your strengths as a player, is key.

A last thought, cruise around Brunswick's site and they will talk about "High RG asymmetric differential to quicken the response time to friction" It seems to me, THIS is what we want on a pattern like Shark.... not much distance for the ball to travel on friction between the end of the pattern and the pin deck, we want the ball to GET ON IT.
_________________________
Code Red, Code Black, Roto Grip Hustle POW, White Dot in the bag.

Top
#177449 - 03/24/13 05:56 PM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Joe Bowler]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Concerning Diff, I would make a similar argument that the deeper most bowlers (under 500 RPMs) are required to play on the lane, the more Diff that is required. Most bowlers think to buy an entry level ball (typically higher RG, lower Diff), then wonder why it won't make the turn and carry the corner pin when the lanes are hooking, especially when they have to bump in deeper into the oil. It may seem like it exacerbates the problem (more hook when the lanes are already hooking), but more Diff is exactly what is needed.

Concerning matching higher RG to longer pattern, consider the 47-foot Paris pattern. While it is a long pattern, it is also low volume pattern. Below is advice from Kelly Kulick concerning matching the longer length with a higher RG.



...and below is advice from Chris Barnes concerning matching the lower volume with a weaker surface.



Concerning the Cheetah pattern, I believe the 2013 WSOB winner, Bill O'Neill rolled a Hammer Arson Low Flare, a lower RG, lower Diff ball out to the 3 board at the downlane markers to win the championship. Makes perfect sense to me.

_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#177455 - 03/24/13 07:32 PM Re: Thoughts on RG, Diff [Re: Joe Bowler]
56bird Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 706
A/S/L: 47 Male, Malta NY
Riiiiiighttt... but.....



When I hear "Stronger drilling, picks up in the midlane" I'm hearing lower RG. Could be more than one way to skin this cat.... er... fish?

10-4 on Cheetah, that Arson Low-Flare is pretty much the ball I was saying I don't have for that condition (interesting that Hammer markets it as a "dry lane" ball when I think they mean "dry, long back ends". Out of what I do have I still suspect the solid Roto Grip Shout would be my best bet, with some surface to try and counteract the high RG. I could try the bowlingball.com idea and use my heavy-oil, high-flare beast to try to bleed off energy early, but flat tens make me sad.
_________________________
Code Red, Code Black, Roto Grip Hustle POW, White Dot in the bag.

Top
Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Moderator:  Angel, Community Manager 
Savings That Support BowlingCommunity.com
We need your help!
Rather than begging for donations we're asking you to do one simple thing to help keep these forums running smooth:
When shopping for anything on Amazon.com or eBay please use these links to go to the web sites.

This won't cost you a cent!
You'll still get the exact same low prices, deals and free or low cost shipping; it doesn't change anything for you at all! The items do not have to be bowling related; all purchases made through these links help us! Amazon.com and eBay will pay us a small commission for every sale and it's helping us cover the expenses.

BowlingCommunity.com Recent Posts
Duplicating the reaction of an obsolete ball
by BowlerBill - 7 minutes 57 seconds ago
2018 USBC Open Championships Syracuse NY
by wronghander - 08/07/18 08:45 PM
Summer Leagues 2018 thread
by Vic44 - 08/04/18 10:41 PM
Short Pin to Axis Layouts for Full Rollers?
by nord - 07/28/18 04:27 PM
Axis Weight Layout for Full Roller?
by Mkirchie - 07/28/18 07:45 AM
PBA Moving From ESPN to Fox
by Gutterballqueen313 - 07/25/18 01:50 PM
End of Days
by Gutterballqueen313 - 07/25/18 01:41 PM
Summer House Tourney
by Dennis Michael - 07/24/18 08:26 AM
Help with grip/ Thumb Position
by 82Boat69 - 07/15/18 08:11 PM
Terms Of Use
Use of this community signifies your agreement to the Community Standards and Conditions of Use.

About BowlingFans.com | Contact Us | Advertise With Us | Site Map
Use of this website constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. | Material Connection Disclosure

Copyright © 1998 - 2018 - usrbingeek LLC | Copyright Policy
BowlingFans.com, BowlingFans, The Right Approach, Kegler's Connection, Tour411, BallBeat, BowlingCommunity.com, BowlSearch.com, and Bowling News You Can Use are trademarks of usrbingeek LLC. All other trademarks and tradenames are property of their respective owners.