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#173878 - 12/10/12 11:56 AM Questions about PAP
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2144
A/S/L: 32/M/AZ
I'm mostly ignorant to dual angle layouts, and PAPs. I have a few questions:

How many bowlers throw the ball consistently enough to have a defined PAP? Does a 150 average bowler have a PAP? 200 level?

Does altering axis rotation and axis tilt change PAP?

Is it true that all balls thrown by a given bowler will have slightly different PAPs?
_________________________
Nowadays, I open bowl practice and go to Nationals every year.

USBC Open personal bests: 226/602/1690
USBC Open career average: 174.66 (45 Games)

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Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
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#173880 - 12/10/12 12:53 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: champ]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3825
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
The positive axis point on a bowling ball is like the eye of a hurricane, or the axle on a wheel. Everything rotates around it. Typically, it is unaffected by changes in axis rotation and axis tilt. Using the bicycle analogy, turning the handlebars is like changing the axis rotation. Leaning left or right is like changing the axis tilt. Still, the wheel rotates around the same axle.

What complicates things is that most bowling balls today flare, and that migrates the positive axis point. If you were to place a brightly colored dot on the positive axis point of a typical plastic spare ball, it would stay in place all the way down the lane. But, on a ball with a dynamic core, it would start flaring as soon as it left your hand, and the brightly colored dot would quickly move off the spot.

Sometimes, the positive axis point can change with a major release change (for example, spin versus roll), or with a major grip change (for example, span and pitch changes). But, otherwise, it usually stays pretty much the same for a particular bowler from ball to ball. I recently updated my grip. But, it did not change my PAP or RPMs, however, it did change my axis rotation and tilt.

In the video below, my PAP is the orange dot. I was using a ball that flares. You can see the PAP migrating as the ball approaches the arrows.

_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#173881 - 12/10/12 01:05 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: champ]
cole Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 07/07/12
Posts: 66
A/S/L: 27/male/ohio
im need to get my pap check out before i get my new bowling ball but my Pro Shop guy wont tell me anything about that

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#173884 - 12/10/12 01:34 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: champ]
VFF57 Offline
Legend

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1636
A/S/L: 50's/M/NJ
Most Pro shops around here won't take the time to measure a league bowlers PAP unless some arm twisting is involved. Unless the person is a pro the shop assumes the slop factor of the bowlers release will out weigh the details of the measurement. When they do it the measurement is usually taken from existing oil rings using a Pro Sect after a throw of a ball in some oil.

I consider the PAP as a personal course reference for a particular drill layout. If a person changes their release enough to deviate from their normal track where measurements originated from then the PAP will change. It will add some plus or minus effect to the intended drill of the ball.
_________________________
League:
High Game 300
High Series 803
-------------------------
Motiv: Raptor P7
MoRich: Aggressive Motion
Storm: VG,Crossroad,NP
Hammer: Spike,Psycho,Raw Anger,
Cherry Vibe,Taboo Plastic/Spare,
Black Hammer
Columbia: White Dot

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#173885 - 12/10/12 02:44 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: VFF57]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2144
A/S/L: 32/M/AZ
Originally Posted By: VFF57
Unless the person is a pro the shop assumes the slop factor of the bowlers release will out weigh the details of the measurement.


This is exactly why I asked the questions. I recently overheard a VERY pretentious Pro Shop owner badmouthing my main shop, telling his customers "don't go there, he doesn't use the dual angle method." While its true that my shop doesn't use them, and it wouldn't hurt for them to learn, I wonder just how valuable they really are to bowlers at a sub-elite level.

Being honest with myself, and my own game, I know my PAP is only constant when I am bowling very well. If I'm not having a 650+ type night, I can see the PAP is all over the place.
_________________________
Nowadays, I open bowl practice and go to Nationals every year.

USBC Open personal bests: 226/602/1690
USBC Open career average: 174.66 (45 Games)

See you in Reno 2020!

Top
#173887 - 12/10/12 03:20 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: champ]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3825
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
If a bowler's grip is drilled the same (or close), their PAP is not likely to change. It has nothing to do with scores or changes in axis rotation, axis tilt, or revolutions from one release to the next. A bowler's PAP follows them, almost like a fingerprint.

For the beginner bowler rolling a plastic ball, it may be okay not to know your PAP, but before buying any ball that flares, either the bowler (or their Pro Shop) needs to know the PAP before applying any layout. Otherwise, it is a shot in the dark how the ball will react.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#173888 - 12/10/12 03:25 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: champ]
VFF57 Offline
Legend

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1636
A/S/L: 50's/M/NJ
Originally Posted By: champ
Originally Posted By: VFF57
Unless the person is a pro the shop assumes the slop factor of the bowlers release will out weigh the details of the measurement.


This is exactly why I asked the questions. I recently overheard a VERY pretentious Pro Shop owner badmouthing my main shop, telling his customers "don't go there, he doesn't use the dual angle method." While its true that my shop doesn't use them, and it wouldn't hurt for them to learn, I wonder just how valuable they really are to bowlers at a sub-elite level.

Being honest with myself, and my own game, I know my PAP is only constant when I am bowling very well. If I'm not having a 650+ type night, I can see the PAP is all over the place.


Anytime I've changed shops I've always insisted on new PAP measurements. The way I look at it is I'm the customer possibly spending $150-$200+ on a ball each time. Whether it matters or not it should be my decision not the shops. The guy I'm using now is certified and has attended Mo Pinel's seminars. When I asked about a dual angle layout on my MoRich Aggressive Motion he said I won't benefit from it on a symmetrical core. Not sure why...
_________________________
League:
High Game 300
High Series 803
-------------------------
Motiv: Raptor P7
MoRich: Aggressive Motion
Storm: VG,Crossroad,NP
Hammer: Spike,Psycho,Raw Anger,
Cherry Vibe,Taboo Plastic/Spare,
Black Hammer
Columbia: White Dot

Top
#173890 - 12/10/12 03:55 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: VFF57]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3825
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Quote:
The guy I'm using now is certified and has attended Mo Pinel's seminars. When I asked about a dual angle layout on my MoRich Aggressive Motion he said I won't benefit from it on a symmetrical core. Not sure why...

I would suggest asking for a more detailed explanation. The Dual Angle Layout method is for both symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. See http://www.morichbowling.com/Education/DualAngleSeminar/DualAngleSeminar.htm.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#173891 - 12/10/12 04:37 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: Joe Bowler]
VFF57 Offline
Legend

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1636
A/S/L: 50's/M/NJ
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Quote:
The guy I'm using now is certified and has attended Mo Pinel's seminars. When I asked about a dual angle layout on my MoRich Aggressive Motion he said I won't benefit from it on a symmetrical core. Not sure why...

I would suggest asking for a more detailed explanation. The Dual Angle Layout method is for both symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. See http://www.morichbowling.com/Education/DualAngleSeminar/DualAngleSeminar.htm.



I don't remember the exact words but I was puzzled by his response when I asked. I ended-up with one of the layouts from the drill sheet that I picked which was similar to the old school stacked leverage. I'll have to ask again next time I'm there. Overall I was happy with the results.
_________________________
League:
High Game 300
High Series 803
-------------------------
Motiv: Raptor P7
MoRich: Aggressive Motion
Storm: VG,Crossroad,NP
Hammer: Spike,Psycho,Raw Anger,
Cherry Vibe,Taboo Plastic/Spare,
Black Hammer
Columbia: White Dot

Top
#173925 - 12/11/12 01:42 PM Re: Questions about PAP [Re: champ]
VFF57 Offline
Legend

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1636
A/S/L: 50's/M/NJ
Quote:
f a bowler's grip is drilled the same (or close), their PAP is not likely to change. It has nothing to do with scores or changes in axis rotation, axis tilt, or revolutions from one release to the next. A bowler's PAP follows them, almost like a fingerprint.


I think I'm missing something here. PAP is based on finding the equidistant point to the right of the ball from the track ring (right hand). If a bowler changes the axis tilt intentionally or via release slop the ball track has to change which changes the PAP measurement? If I brought two different balls each one rolled by the same person with significantly different tilt to a driller he would come up with two different PAP measurements. I think the key to a PAP measurement is to roll a ball with a typical or normally used release. If the bowler is of a caliber to repeat that same normal release within some tolerance then the PAP becomes an important measurement. Otherwise not that important per the mindset of some drillers. I think of the axis as always being on the horizontal plane.
_________________________
League:
High Game 300
High Series 803
-------------------------
Motiv: Raptor P7
MoRich: Aggressive Motion
Storm: VG,Crossroad,NP
Hammer: Spike,Psycho,Raw Anger,
Cherry Vibe,Taboo Plastic/Spare,
Black Hammer
Columbia: White Dot

Top
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