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#167497 - 06/03/12 04:28 PM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: NaSTI]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Concerning layout, you need to start by finding your Positive Axis Point (PAP). A very strong layout would be 3-3/8 inch Pin to PAP, 20 degree Angle to Vertical Axis Line (VAL), and 90 degree Drilling Angle. That will give you a long and strong backend reaction. But, depending on the location of your PAP, you may need to start with a ball with a longer Pin, 3.5 to 4.5 inches, or increase the Angle to VAL.

For more info, see http://www.morichbowling.com/Education/Drilling.aspx


Your new Vivid layout is pretty close to what I suggested in your new member thread. Nice to see it working out for you. For future drillings, if you leave everything else the same, and increase the drilling angle to 90 degrees, I think you will be even happier.

My impression is that our games are similar in terms of speed and revs. You might try experimenting with sanding the Vivid to 4000 and polishing it to further accentuate the backend reaction, and increase the overall usefulness of the ball (not just heavy oil).
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#167503 - 06/04/12 02:28 AM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: NaSTI]
NaSTI Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 216
A/S/L: 33/M/Renton WA
Wow you are absolutely correct. I forgot to look at my other thread, and was focused on drilling suggestions here. Joe, you were pretty much spot on. Ok so maybe on my next future ball, you suggest 90 x 3 3/8 x 20? Let me get this straight. A higher drilling angle is basically the length and will start rolling later? Or is it the higher the angle to the val? Aagh so confusing. Will definitely take your recommendation and actually I was contemplating on doing some surface changes so I can actually USE it on more conditions.

I really like my Frantic and considering OOB its 1500 polished, which would be a better choice to start with for the Vivid...2000 Polished or 4000 sanded? I understand coverstocks play the biggest role in ball motion but man, am I glad I had my Vivid plugged and redrilled, lol.
_________________________
My arsenal - Brunswick Mastermind, Storm Natural Pearl, Storm Reign of Power, Track MX10 and Track 505C2 High game - 300 High Series - 814
Avg. 2teens
08 Subaru STI 397whp/430wtq @ 20psi...hence the screen name

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#167504 - 06/04/12 07:56 AM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: NaSTI]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Below is the effect I find adjusting the layout variables. I drill my own equipment, and have experimented with hundreds of balls and layouts, and this is what I have found to be true.
Pin to PAP - controls amount of flare, 3-3/8 inches for most flare
Angle to VAL - controls how quickly energy is released, 20 degrees for latest, quickest breakpoint
Drilling Angle - controls breakpoint shape, 90 degrees for sharpest angle.

Last season, I sanded all of my equipment 500/1000/2000/4000/polish. It was a departure from conventional wisdom, but worked for me being primarily a stroker. The differences in the built-in friction in various coverstocks, different core dynamics, and layouts of each ball were sufficient to allow me to play every condition I encountered.

It also helps explain why balls like the Nano Pearl were not a good choice for me. I need to see the ball skid, hook, then roll. Balls that start rolling out of my hand are dead when they hit the pocket. And, it is too much work trying to get them down the lane before they hook. I much prefer balls that conserve energy. That helps increase entry angle.

I just bought a bunch of new equipment myself, and am experimenting with adjusting the surfaces, but am leaning towards taking them all to 4000 w/polish again. At least that way, with each ball sanded and polished exactly the same, I will be able to better compare them if further adjustments are necessary.

_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#167509 - 06/04/12 11:03 AM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: Joe Bowler]
NaSTI Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 216
A/S/L: 33/M/Renton WA
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler


Last season, I sanded all of my equipment 500/1000/2000/4000/polish. It was a departure from conventional wisdom, but worked for me being primarily a stroker. The differences in the built-in friction in various coverstocks, different core dynamics, and layouts of each ball were sufficient to allow me to play every condition I encountered.


Let me see if I understand you correctly. For 1 particular ball, do you first sand it with 500 then move to 1000 etc.. then apply polish? Or are you saying youve tried all or most of the different combinations? Lastly, do you drill all your balls roughly the same layout? Would that be a good idea and benchmark to drill it all the same and just have different coverstocks and cores? Might want to try the 90 x 3 3/8 x 20 on an old ball and if it improves, maybe get all of them drilled the same or my future balls.
_________________________
My arsenal - Brunswick Mastermind, Storm Natural Pearl, Storm Reign of Power, Track MX10 and Track 505C2 High game - 300 High Series - 814
Avg. 2teens
08 Subaru STI 397whp/430wtq @ 20psi...hence the screen name

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#167511 - 06/04/12 11:16 AM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: NaSTI]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
By 500/1000/2000/4000/polish, I mean starting with 500 grit and sanding all 6 sides on a spinner, then starting again with 1000 grit, then 2000 grit, 4000 grit (Abralon), and finally applying polish. That will give you the smoothest, shiniest surface since each successive sanding is finer and finer.

I would recommend having different layouts, but in my experience, only a few are necessary for a 6-ball arsenal. I detailed my current strategy in the thread below. It started with my equipment purchases, layouts, and surface prep last year. It's only a few pages long. You may want to read it from the beginning to see my evolution of thought:
http://www.bowlingcommunity.com/b/ubbthr...html#Post167172

Also, be aware that plugging and re-drilling a ball in a different location may alter its performance. Ball plug is the same density, while the previous drilling may have drilled through the denser core, as well as the cover and filler. Thus, the core shape and its performance characteristics (rg, diff) may be effectively changed as a result of the previous drilling. So, results may be less than ideal on a plugged ball.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#167519 - 06/04/12 12:33 PM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: Joe Bowler]
B-Hammer Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 1818
A/S/L: 30/M/Bellingham WA
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Below is the effect I find adjusting the layout variables. I drill my own equipment, and have experimented with hundreds of balls and layouts, and this is what I have found to be true.
Pin to PAP - controls amount of flare, 3-3/8 inches for most flare
Angle to VAL - controls how quickly energy is released, 20 degrees for latest, quickest breakpoint
Drilling Angle - controls breakpoint shape, 90 degrees for sharpest angle.



I have a slightly different take, but like you said that's what you experienced and have drilled a lot more equipment.

Pin to Pap - Flare, see Mo's charts for max flare, changes significantly between asymmetrical and symmetrical balls.

Drilling angle - Length, lower the number the easier it is for the ball to get into a roll i.e. shorter skid phase.

Val angle - The length of the hook phase, i.e. the smaller the number the shorter the phase and more angular the hook.

http://tamerbowling.com/index.php/how-critical-is-drilling-anyway/

http://www.morichbowling.com/Education/DualAngleSeminar/DualAngleSeminar.htm

** Edit after reading your description again maybe we are saying the same thing just in a different way **


Edited by B-Hammer (06/04/12 12:34 PM)

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#167535 - 06/05/12 03:01 AM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: Joe Bowler]
NaSTI Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 216
A/S/L: 33/M/Renton WA
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
By 500/1000/2000/4000/polish, I mean starting with 500 grit and sanding all 6 sides on a spinner, then starting again with 1000 grit, then 2000 grit, 4000 grit (Abralon), and finally applying polish. That will give you the smoothest, shiniest surface since each successive sanding is finer and finer.

I would recommend having different layouts, but in my experience, only a few are necessary for a 6-ball arsenal. I detailed my current strategy in the thread below. It started with my equipment purchases, layouts, and surface prep last year. It's only a few pages long. You may want to read it from the beginning to see my evolution of thought:
http://www.bowlingcommunity.com/b/ubbthr...html#Post167172

Also, be aware that plugging and re-drilling a ball in a different location may alter its performance. Ball plug is the same density, while the previous drilling may have drilled through the denser core, as well as the cover and filler. Thus, the core shape and its performance characteristics (rg, diff) may be effectively changed as a result of the previous drilling. So, results may be less than ideal on a plugged ball.


So what would the difference be if I tried going that route 500/1000/2000/3000/4000+ polish versus 4000 + polish off the bat since OOB finish on the Vivid is 2000? I see so maybe having a ball drilled twice would prolly be the limit as far as changing layouts go before the RG and differential starts being affectes. Thanks.
_________________________
My arsenal - Brunswick Mastermind, Storm Natural Pearl, Storm Reign of Power, Track MX10 and Track 505C2 High game - 300 High Series - 814
Avg. 2teens
08 Subaru STI 397whp/430wtq @ 20psi...hence the screen name

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#167536 - 06/05/12 03:19 AM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: B-Hammer]
NaSTI Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 216
A/S/L: 33/M/Renton WA
Originally Posted By: B-Hammer


I have a slightly different take, but like you said that's what you experienced and have drilled a lot more equipment.

Pin to Pap - Flare, see Mo's charts for max flare, changes significantly between asymmetrical and symmetrical balls.

Drilling angle - Length, lower the number the easier it is for the ball to get into a roll i.e. shorter skid phase.

Val angle - The length of the hook phase, i.e. the smaller the number the shorter the phase and more angular the hook.

http://tamerbowling.com/index.php/how-critical-is-drilling-anyway/

http://www.morichbowling.com/Education/DualAngleSeminar/DualAngleSeminar.htm

** Edit after reading your description again maybe we are saying the same thing just in a different way **


Lets say im in thw market for a new skid/flip ball. Being OOB polished and will naturally go long, do I want the drilling angle lower or still stay in the higher range, 60-90? What im trying to ask is, should I have a high drilling angle to compliment it or lower angle since it has length already?
_________________________
My arsenal - Brunswick Mastermind, Storm Natural Pearl, Storm Reign of Power, Track MX10 and Track 505C2 High game - 300 High Series - 814
Avg. 2teens
08 Subaru STI 397whp/430wtq @ 20psi...hence the screen name

Top
#167537 - 06/05/12 05:24 AM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: NaSTI]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Quote:
So what would the difference be if I tried going that route 500/1000/2000/3000/4000+ polish versus 4000 + polish off the bat since OOB finish on the Vivid is 2000?

Starting with 500 is one way to ensure that you can exactly reproduce the same finish. Not every manufacturer follows the same stair step approach to arrive at the final grit. For example, the OOB on a Columbia Omen is 4000, but the process is 500/4000, skipping the steps in between to produce a rougher finish.

Quote:
Lets say im in thw market for a new skid/flip ball. Being OOB polished and will naturally go long, do I want the drilling angle lower or still stay in the higher range, 60-90? What im trying to ask is, should I have a high drilling angle to compliment it or lower angle since it has length already?

When building your arsenal, it is best to have balls that react differently to handle various conditions. Remember that layout accounts for only 10 to 30 percent of the ball's reaction. In a battle between coverstock and layout, coverstock is the likely winner. So, I would recommend choosing balls that fill gaps in your arsenal, and laying them out to complement rather than change their built-in reaction.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#167544 - 06/05/12 12:43 PM Re: Pls. Explain this layout [Re: NaSTI]
B-Hammer Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 1818
A/S/L: 30/M/Bellingham WA
Originally Posted By: NaSTI
Lets say im in thw market for a new skid/flip ball. Being OOB polished and will naturally go long, do I want the drilling angle lower or still stay in the higher range, 60-90? What im trying to ask is, should I have a high drilling angle to compliment it or lower angle since it has length already?


If you truly want to take advantage of the dual angle system, I'd have a Pro Shop familiar with dual angles find your ideal benchmark layout and then from there make adjustments based on the ball your purchasing, what conditions it will be used on, and what kind of reaction you want.

I know in Washington not every center has a good pro-shop or has even heard of the dual angle systems, but if you can find one that does it's for the best.

If you don't want to use the Pro Shop but get your benchmark you can post a video of your release on Mo's forum and if it's high quality enough they can extract your tilt, revs, speed, and rotation to get your benchmark.

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