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#163977 - 03/02/12 01:41 AM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: ecub]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Did you let him re establish average? Because when he switched hands he should have still used his ongoing stats. He doesn't get to start totally over as if he was a new person joining the league. That's not how I've seen it done before.

Erin

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#163984 - 03/02/12 09:23 AM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: ecub]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9780
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
The confusion is some here are merging 2 separate issues.

First, a bowler is eligible for position round once they have bowled 15 games. There is NO mention of which hand or if he kicked the ball. If he completed 15 games, he has a right to bowl.

second, switching to left handed was approved, and his new average is being established. He is not a different bowler, but he does carry 2 different averages, 1 righty and 1 lefty.

Because he was allowed to switch to lefty, he has to stay that way until he petitions the BOD again, to switch back.
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#163985 - 03/02/12 09:48 AM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
metguy Offline
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Registered: 03/12/11
Posts: 1108
A/S/L: 46/m/waverly iowa
Originally Posted By: Calvin Pistorio
How about a ruling by USBC rules department?


I have a hard time understanding why the USBC would render a ruling relating to ANYTHING regarding position rounds when (under rule 120/1-8) it continually and consistantly refers to "BOD", "Secretary", and "Unless otherwise provided by league rules". The intent of requiring X number of games to be eligable to bowl position rounds can not be assumed by the USBC and therefore has to be up to the league itself or the Board of Directors. I'd consider this (alleged) ruling VOID.

Furthermore, any request must be in writing and the response must also be in writing when appealing to the USBC. You must be able to produce this upon request and not just rely on hearsay.
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#164005 - 03/02/12 04:32 PM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: ecub]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9780
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Metguy, I read ecub's initial post as these were league rules. A bowler must have 15 games to be eligible in a position round.
The BOD has allowed a hand switch.

However, maintaining separate averages for left and right hand is a USBC rule.
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#164006 - 03/02/12 04:47 PM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: metguy]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: metguy
Originally Posted By: Calvin Pistorio
How about a ruling by USBC rules department?


I have a hard time understanding why the USBC would render a ruling relating to ANYTHING regarding position rounds when (under rule 120/1-8) it continually and consistantly refers to "BOD", "Secretary", and "Unless otherwise provided by league rules". The intent of requiring X number of games to be eligable to bowl position rounds can not be assumed by the USBC and therefore has to be up to the league itself or the Board of Directors. I'd consider this (alleged) ruling VOID.

Furthermore, any request must be in writing and the response must also be in writing when appealing to the USBC. You must be able to produce this upon request and not just rely on hearsay.


As these kinds of rules are common, USBC can clarify how to interpret them. Maybe me using the word ruling was wrong. You can't consider it void. If you don't believe what I posted contact USBC yourself. USBC is the governing body of the sport and league rules don't supersede USBC rules, and USBC has every right to clarify the interpretation of a rule. It wasn't an appeal has I'm not in the league and it doesn't directly have anything to do with me and there is no ruling by the BOD, then again one isn't needed with the above clarification. But I contacted USBC as to take out the opinions being posted on this thread and get a fact. The original poster can contact USBC rules through the bowl.com site and get the answer themselves if he wants to take "heresay" out of the equation but again the clarification can't be voided.

If this situation was to be taken before the BOD of that specific league and they were to vote it down and not allow the bowler in question to bowl then he could appeal and win, but considering the position round would be over and probably not resolved for over a month the bowler would miss out on the ability to bowl the position round and then starts a big mess of post bowling in order to do it and the complaints that go along with it.

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#164021 - 03/03/12 08:03 AM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
metguy Offline
Legend

Registered: 03/12/11
Posts: 1108
A/S/L: 46/m/waverly iowa
Originally Posted By: Calvin Pistorio

If this situation was to be taken before the BOD of that specific league and they were to vote it down and not allow the bowler in question to bowl then he could appeal and win, but considering the position round would be over and probably not resolved for over a month the bowler would miss out on the ability to bowl the position round and then starts a big mess of post bowling in order to do it and the complaints that go along with it.




As long as its a "League Specific" rule (needing 15 games to bowl position rounds), there is no grounds for the USBC to interpret it. At least not without someone appealing the rule. Now lets think about this for a second. Why would a games limit be put in place to begin with? There is only one reason why. Bowlers want everyone to have some kind of established average going into these position rounds. You can not count right handed games as "Established average games" when they aren't bowling right handed.

I've been also thinking, what about a new bowler just joining the league? It would be the same thing. I can see where they were going with it but (in my opinion) it's just not a very good rule. Then again, i'm not in that league and don't know what the circumstances were that brought up that rule.

Either way, leagues shouldn't fear "having a mess on their hands if they don't allow something" everytime a situation arises that is against league rules. When making individual rules for a league it is important to think things through before adopting them. Once adopted, only a vote can change it (for everyone) or an appeal (to an individual).

I do agree that the injured bowler (after applying for an appeal) would win that ruling but based on the current league rules that would be the step that bowler would need to take. There is no league rule more important than the rest, they all need to be enforced as wrote.
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#164023 - 03/03/12 08:23 AM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: ecub]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9780
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Metguy, it is common for leagues to define the nember of games needed to qualify. Generally, 15 games to qualify for a position round.

but, it is also common for leagues to define the number of games needed to establish average. Generally, 9 games to establish.

My concern would be that the bowler had 15 games in total, but didn't have the required 9 games to establish a LH average. In this case, the changed bowler could still be establiching an average on a position night. Don't know how that would be treated. It may not even be a problem.

It is also common for a team to develop a roster of bowlers beyond the routine team headcount, per USBC and league rules. Our Wednesday league allows any bowler on the roster to bowl on any night, even position rounds or rolloffs.

We had a bowler last year, who through injury, had to switch hands. In that case, 1 bowler took up 2 slots on the roster; 1 for RH and 1 for LH.


Edited by Dennis Michael (03/03/12 08:31 AM)
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#164024 - 03/03/12 09:03 AM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: Dennis Michael]
metguy Offline
Legend

Registered: 03/12/11
Posts: 1108
A/S/L: 46/m/waverly iowa
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael

It is also common for a team to develop a roster of bowlers beyond the routine team headcount, per USBC and league rules. Our Wednesday league allows any bowler on the roster to bowl on any night, even position rounds or rolloffs.


That's a good point. My league allows that also. But the question is "Does this league"? That's the funny thing about leagues, they all are a little different. Maybe i'm just too strict but i've seen league rules manipulated to help some and restrict others. Maybe someday i'll learn to just keep my mouth shut and bowl. (probably not)


Edited by metguy (03/03/12 09:05 AM)
_________________________
SKID - HOOK - ROLL (don't forget about the roll)

This season: HG-289 HS-685
Career #'s : HG-299 HS-782

Arsonal: Heat (Pearl), 2Fast, Blue Hammer, Raptor P7, Fire Road


TRANSITIONING TO MOTIV EQUIPMENT
(CCWBRA)

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#164025 - 03/03/12 09:26 AM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: metguy]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: metguy

That's a good point. My league allows that also. But the question is "Does this league"? That's the funny thing about leagues, they all are a little different. Maybe i'm just too strict but i've seen league rules manipulated to help some and restrict others. Maybe someday i'll learn to just keep my mouth shut and bowl. (probably not)


I've seen that happen too, especially in a league I was in several years ago. The league president would selectively enforce rules to try to gain an advantage. I agree the rules should be followed and in the original question posed allowing the bowler who switched hands to bowl in the position round would be following the rules. He has the number of games bowled in.

As a reply to a previous post, that I had typed up but it accidentally got erased, all league rules in a USBC sanctioned league are opened to interpretation to by USBC to allow for fairness. That is one of the reasons for the governing body to exist. Ideally all league rules should be submitted to make sure they conform to and don't contradict USBC rules and to help make rules clearer to understand.
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#164031 - 03/03/12 10:53 AM Re: Q: New LH bowler bowling on position round [Re: ecub]
tbill Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 693
A/S/L: 42/m/ny
i typed a long winded reply, but thought it'd just convolute the issue more, lol.

it's a bit of a quandry i guess, i suppose it depends on the league itself, and how loosely they use/interpret the rules.

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