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#162194 - 02/05/12 04:43 PM Hosed today at tournament?
Jazlar Von Steich Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 102
A/S/L: 43/M/Windsor, Ontario, Canada
I also posted this on the Hammer forums, so I will just copy and paste here. Should be more people in the know here.

I have recently switched to a two handed release. I still shoot one handed at some of my spare leaves and/or to take the oil out of play. However, I was told today at the big city tournament that this was the same thing as switching hands. And they told me this right at the end of practice. I was so relaxed and striking with 3 different balls/lines in warmups.

I know PBA allows this. I'm pretty sure USBC allows it. The question is, is anyone familiar with CTF rules (Canadian)? I am still throwing with the same dominant hand - which I argued with tournament officials. And this was a SCRATCH tournament. It should matter even less.

They were confused though, because there aren't really any other 2 handed bowlers in the area. They told me they would give me a free re-entry if they misinterpreted the rules. Several other people told me to demand to see the rules, but I just decided to bowl two handed at all spares anyway. I wish I would have had one of my plastic balls there. I had several urethanes, but still a bit more movement than plastic. And seeing how I haven't practiced shooting straight two handed since I made the switch, it made it tougher.

The good news is that I was finally able to use my Epidemic throwing two handed. It's way too strong on a house shot. My Arson is the only resin ball I can throw and even that is only at one house. Mostly throwing urethane in league. I just bought a new Storm Natural to replace my old multiple drilled ball. Also got a Natural Pearl. And I have the new Blue Hammer. The Hammer seems to fit right in the middle of those two. And then my Taboo Spare if the shot is really dry.

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#162195 - 02/05/12 05:03 PM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: Jazlar Von Steich]
helloyo53 Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 76
A/S/L: 16/M/Ontario
That's really odd that they would deter you from switching back and forth

I bowl in youth bowling but it is still under CTF rules. I was in the Ivan Nelson Memorial Tournament (covered by CTF) a couple of weeks ago in Mississauga and I remember seeing several bowlers there that had the two handed style approach but threw with one hand at many of the spares. Now, perhaps it is because it is a youth tournament and the rules may be different, but I can't see why they would deter you from switching between two hands and one.
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#162196 - 02/05/12 05:11 PM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: Jazlar Von Steich]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2144
A/S/L: 32/M/AZ
I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to your question, but it seems very strange that it would matter at all in a scratch tournament.
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#162197 - 02/05/12 05:14 PM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: helloyo53]
Jazlar Von Steich Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 102
A/S/L: 43/M/Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Well I just checked the CTF rules and this is all it states (paraphrasing):

1. In leagues where you establish an average, you must bowl with the same hand. That makes sense. But it also says nothing about two handing - which is still a one handed release in reality.

2. In handicap and classified tournaments, you must use the same hand. Again, same thing. I don't know what a classified tournament is, but this makes sense. Still doesn't seem to restrict to bowling two handed at all spares.

But the main fact is, this was a SCRATCH tournament. I should be able to release the ball however I wish, as long as it is a legal release. I'm not taking advantage of any handicap.

It seems like the people there are just clueless. And it also begs the question as to what happens if a thumbless bowler puts his thumb in the ball to shoot at spares. I'm sure some do. Either way, I'm 99% sure I got hosed.

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#162211 - 02/05/12 07:35 PM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: Jazlar Von Steich]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
If you were switching the hand that was "gripping" the ball then I say they were correct. USBC allows for going from one handed to two handed as long as it's the same dominant hands but not sure about CTF rules. I don't see why it should be any different.

As for the comments that it is a scratch tournament you should be able to deliver the ball anyway you want, tournament games can be used to calculate averages for use in other tournaments including handicap tournaments and classified tournaments.

I believe classified tournaments are those with multiple divisions or classifications. It's usually average based.
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#162222 - 02/05/12 10:31 PM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: Jazlar Von Steich]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9809
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
If you roll 2 handed, you still have a dominant hand. You probably insert your fingers in the ball. That defines the dominance. That same hand can then be used to roll 1 handed for your spares.
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#162224 - 02/05/12 11:21 PM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: Jazlar Von Steich]
Jazlar Von Steich Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 102
A/S/L: 43/M/Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Well I will be contacting the CTF this week. If I was, indeed, screwed over, I will make sure I get that free re-entry. I still ended up bowling a 940 5 game set, but I would have likely been over 1000 if I was allowed to one hand some of the spares. Also, it completely got me out of my relaxed state. I may have had more strikes as well. Really annoying that people are not up on this stuff. Two handed bowling has been around for awhile now.

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#163431 - 02/22/12 07:13 AM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: Jazlar Von Steich]
Chuck Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 02/18/12
Posts: 260
A/S/L: 33/M/WI
Odd.. I was once told the rules didn't allow for "orthadox'd delivery" or some wording like that of ones normal throwing motion.

I'd be interested to see if switching between 2 handed and 1 handed would count the same way. I was told this once years ago when I fired a ball between my legs. It was my normal three fingered right hand play, but because it was not my standard delivery that it was illegal.

Personally I'd like to be able to play left and right handed as I see fit while the issue with average tracking remains the same I'm not allowed to switch to my advantage so I'm not sure why other delivery changes would be allowed.

My thought is it's the same problem.. bowler bowl 2 handed for avg limiting their spares and bowles 1 & 2 handed in tournaments effectively using a significantly higher average... I'm not really sure why they do it I'm just thinking out loud here.
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#163464 - 02/22/12 06:21 PM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: Chuck]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: Chuck
Odd.. I was once told the rules didn't allow for "orthadox'd delivery" or some wording like that of ones normal throwing motion.

I'd be interested to see if switching between 2 handed and 1 handed would count the same way. I was told this once years ago when I fired a ball between my legs. It was my normal three fingered right hand play, but because it was not my standard delivery that it was illegal.

Personally I'd like to be able to play left and right handed as I see fit while the issue with average tracking remains the same I'm not allowed to switch to my advantage so I'm not sure why other delivery changes would be allowed.

My thought is it's the same problem.. bowler bowl 2 handed for avg limiting their spares and bowles 1 & 2 handed in tournaments effectively using a significantly higher average... I'm not really sure why they do it I'm just thinking out loud here.


USBC has ruled that a two hander may switch to one hand as long as the same dominant hand is used and the ball swings on the same side of the body. The best example would be Osku Palermaa. He is considered right handed because the fingers of the right hand are in the ball and the ball swings on the right side of his body. He swings the ball two handed on strikes and then on most spares he throws one handed.

As for the rest of post, the ball being released between the legs changes part of where the ball swings and can be considered a change in delivery. The same with changing of a dominant hand.
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#163476 - 02/22/12 09:28 PM Re: Hosed today at tournament? [Re: Jazlar Von Steich]
Lumpytire Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 70
A/S/L: 29/M/AZ
Just adding on this post, you are most definitely allowed to switch from one to two handed as long as the same dominant hand is used (in USBC). An acquaintance of mine had a teammate tear his tricep during Nationals a few years past and had to switch to a two handed delivery to finish the set. The team ended up shooting somewhere in the top 25 and they were seventh at one point. If there was any violation of the rule this wouldn't of slipped through the cracks.
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