Okay, so I've been bowling seriously for a little while now, and I've gotten over quite a few problems, from hideous timing, to arm pains, to hooking with a plastic ball. I spent ages trying to learn to "stroke" the ball instead of cranking it. My uncle who just happens to be an amazing bowler, asked me, "Why the **** are you trying to do that if it isn't natural?" he's a cranker, and a good, consistent one. I replied, inquisitively, "I've been told by a lot of people that cranking is bad.". To which he philosiphically replied, "If it isn't natural, don't do it. Now let me teach you consistency." And he did, I'm throwing better, my consistency is way better, and my body doesn't hurt so much. Now, the point of this long winding tale, should I just do what's natural but minimise on the damage, or should I try and get rid of the habit?

The main thing that is wrong with cranking is it makes it harder to repeat shots. If you can overcome this hurdle, then do what you like. The reason it's harder to repeat shots is because you are muscling the ball more when you crank the shot. The more you muscle the ball, the harder it is to repeat speed. On a typical house shot, that won't matter much. It may actually help. On a harder shot, speed matters. The more you do everything the exact same way, the easier it is to repeat the shot. Of course there will be times when the cranker will be hard to beat. There will be times when the stroker will be hard to beat. But, when the shot gets hard, the straighter, more accurate bowler will more than likely prevail. Accuracy means more than just hitting the same mark each shot, accuracy also means hitting the same breakpoint each shot and releasing the ball with the same speed on each shot. I have heard that the best on tour at repeating the same shot by hitting the same target at the same rev rate and the same speed time after time is Parker Bohn III. The bowler with the best hand eye coordination on tour has to be Walter Ray Williams. Both bowlers are Strokers that play very straight.

Of course there are many bowlers who crank the ball that win on tour, like Tommy Jones for example. But the number of bowlers that don't crank it and win outnumber the ones that do.
Brian Voss
Norm Duke
Parker Bohn III
Walter Ray Williams
Pete Weber ( not a cranker or a stroker, He's a Power Stroker )

Then there is the injury factor. Putting that much torque on your wrist to create that much power, can't be a good thing in the long run. There aren't that many senior tour crankers. At some point, if you bowl long enough, you'll become a stroker too. Maybe sooner, maybe later, maybe you'll stop bowling before then.

Smooth is correct as usual. However another point to consider is that at 15, its easy to crank the ball. At 35 and 40 it gets harder. And at 55 its virtually impossible. I know that now, it seems comfortable and natural. But time will take its price on your body. And you will probably find yourself leaving the sport due to frustration (not being able to keep up) and body pains. Its not going to happen tomorrow, or the next decade. But if you can look into the future 20 - 25 years....you'll probably find that what I am saying is right.

Now, if you don't care how long you stay in the sport, then keep going. ITs OK. Many people come and go out of this sport every year. Very few have the stamina to keep bowling for 30 to 40 consecutive years and still keep competative.

You know who Robert Smith is right? He's tryng to tame his game down so that he can be more versital. He's 31. You know who Michelle Feldman is? Big shooter lady cranker, won lots of titles. Very tough to beat. But at 25 or so, cannot physically bowl the amount of games needed to compete in the PBA. Too much damage from cranking. This I read or saw from an interview from her about ladies participating in the PBA tour trials.

So you can keep on cranking. It will work for you for as long as your body holds out. Gain some weight, get some elbow or knee problems and your bowling days are over. It sounds like you are getting some really good experienced tutoring from your uncle. But if you want to get some versatility, you'll need to engage probably a higher level coach.

Erin

How long you last as a cranker will be determined by many physical factors, such as how much strain you put on your body during the release. If you can find a way to reduce the strain, you'll avoid injury better.

One thing I've learned is that you don't need to crank the ball (huge backswing, planted foot, all muscle throw) to get a big powerful hook. I've been working on making my release more simple. The type of rotation you apply (side or forward) and your drilling pattern can make throwing a big hook fairly simple with little strain on the body. I've found I can now hook the ball as much as I did before without having to really rip into it or plant my foot, and I have better control.

Now there is the issue of pin carry. But my scores have increased, and my carry seems good. In fact, I haven't noticed any difference in carry at all. But my improved control allows me to find the pocket easier. You can still throw a powerful hook, but you may want to look into toning it down a bit to gain more control and put less strain on your body. It wouldn't hurt to practice stroking the ball, either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">
Of course there are many bowlers who crank the ball that win on tour, like Tommy Jones for example.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">And if you really look at his game, it's much more in control and smooth than %90 of the people I've seen who call themselves crankers. His approach is smooth and well balanced. He puts a little mussle into the ball, but it's not forced and it's really not that much. His release is smooth. He gets the ball on the lane cleanly. His body position is really good.

What he does to get those extra revs is to open his shoulders and keep his hand very much inside the center of the ball. If he didn't open his shoulders and he didn't keep his hand so far inside, he'd be a stroker. I really don't think that there'd be much more for him to change.

Tommy Jones isn't really a cranker. He's more of a tweener, a power tweener. He doesn't have the neck snap you see on virtually all crankers. Plus I bet Mr. Jones is not more then 30 if that. He's still in the physical peak age frame.

Erin

Of all the players in my comunity I've treated, most of them are crankers. The most frecuent problem is the shoulder, specificly rotator cuff injuries, and tendinnitis of the shoulder joint in general, aswell as ligament tears. After that, I've treated a number of player that develop tendinnitis of the flexors in the forearm.Very few players have come to me with hamstring injuries and back strains.
The strokers I've seen (very few actualy), have had tendinnitis of the flexors, some with carpal tunnel syndrome, and some sinovial cysts, most of them mild cases. The longer crankers stay with that style of play, the more propensity of them developing an injury.

Now hold on a moment! Tommy Jones is not a cranker? We need a clear definition of what a cranker is. To me, a cranker is someone who uses more side rotation and tends to hook the ball from a deeper position typically. The cranker is also defined by his hitting power. Tommy Jones fits all of that, so I'd say both him and Pete Weber are crankers.

It seems the definition of a cranker on this forum is anyone who has bad form, and the definition of a tweener or stroker is anyone who has good form. I don't agree with that. I think Tommy Jones is generally defined as a cranker--but that (drum roll, please!) he has good form! Come on now. Crankers don't all muscle the ball and snap their necks and spray the ball everywhere like big dumb brutes. Some are very smooth and balanced.

I know strokers that suffer injury too, because playing straighter forces them to throw very hard sometimes and they hurt their shoulders and whatnot. And don't tell me a true stroker doesn't throw hard. I watch PBA all the time. I see strokers like Norm and Walter really struggle to get their speed up, and both of these players have suffered injuries (Walter to his neck, and Norm to his hand).

Sorry folks. I just can't smile and say "Strokers good, crankers bad!" and enjoy the feel good warmth it is sure to generate. No, I have to be a staunch *** and defend the honor of crankers everywhere. Thank you.

A cranker uses their shoulder with a muscled push at the release. If you were to visulize their ball path from the backswing it would look more like a fish hook or backwards letter "J". While a stroker's ball path would look like the smile from a smiley face icon; an even arc. A Tweener's path looks more like a "U" with a long flat bottom. Crankers plant instead of slide. They tend to put their entire body into the release motion hense the usual neck snap you see. In addition to more side spin on the ball. IMO, Walter is moving towards the cranker style.

I personally never said cranking the ball was wrong. Its just not long lived for the player to be in the sport. Nor is it as versital a style. And though Strokers can also have injuries, crankers have far more.

Erin

I was going to link to a video of Rudy "Revs" to show a real cranker, and the latest video that Lane #1 has up has a disclaimer about how Rudy is trying to get a freer, lower armswing and how he's bringing his revs down from 550rpm to 450rpm.

http://lane1bowling.com/rudy/


EDIT:
Ahh.. look at his older videos and you can see the cranker style

http://lane1bowling.com/rudy/rudy_superc_bomb_h20.wmv

now compare this to the newest video up there.

Lefty, on the first video he looked like a power stroker like Tommy Jones and Patrick Allen. The second video, the ball stalls and floats a bit at the top of that high backswing and he appears to cup his wrist more during that stall.

To me a cranker has a Mark Roth cupped wrist to semi-simulate a thumbless shot but with more control.

These guys with a straight wrist or nominal cup but get big revs with a rotate and lift from the ball turned way to the inside are not crankers but power strokers. Tommy Jones I believe sometimes breaks his wrist the opposite of the traditional cupped wrist cranker. No?

You saw a lot more crankers in the 80's, before there was resin. Pete Weber and Amaletto used to be crankers, but they've both simplified their games and are much more smooth (not hitting up on the ball, etc) because the equipment does the work for them.

From time to time I'll watch bowling on ESPN classic and it's funny to see these guys hitting up on the ball and lofting it so much. It's just so different than what the guys out there today do.

Rudy looks like he's trying to take advantage of gravity instead of muscling the ball now. I hope it works out for him and he can make some changes to be cometitive out there.

rolling Pin,

You must be a cranker, right?

I don't mind being the lone defender of the cranker shot, because it gives me something to argue about. But I'm open minded and now I'm going to suggest something that may please you strokers.

I have changed my timing recently, and I will never go back to what I was doing before, and I'll explain why. All this season I had late timing. My quick steps would take me to the line where I would plant my foot, and then my arm would muscle the ball forward, as I tore into the shot. Although fairly accurate at times, I've now come to realize I was not all that accurate, and part of my so-called over-hooking problem was due to pulling the ball slightly or largely inside target several times a game. Result: 188 average on lanes that didn't have a ton of oil in the middle.

Now, I have changed my timing completely. I've slowed my feet down and my arm arrives much more in sync with my steps, powered mostly by gravity (though I may still muscle it at times). This has resulted in dramatically improved accuracy, increased ball speed, and my "over-hooking" problem has been greatly reduced. Since I still hook the ball with a lot of revs most of the time, I would still assume I am a cranker (though I dislike being labeled).

If the clear definition of a cranker is someone who plants their foot and muscles the ball, then I am happy to have abandoned that style and I look for improved scores this summer. But what is the OFFICAL definition of a cranker? If there is one. That's what I want to know.

Why is it called cranker? Simply because the bowler "cranks" the bowling ball. Dont worry. You are not the lone defender. I am with you all the way. I crank it 80% of the time. I change when i have to though. I am sure you do too. A cranker is no worse than a stroker or tweener. I dont care what anyone says.

Thanks, entourage. It's good to know I've got someone on my side. But there must be some very specific way a cranker is defined, and until someone proves me wrong by showing me some type of very respectable definition (such as something offical or widely embraced by, say, coaches), I can never agree that Tommy Jones is not a cranker and that because I no longer plant my foot and muscle the ball then somehow I have become a stroker. I define a cranker by side rotation and hitting power (hence the cranking part). Tommy Jones is a big time cranker. Plain and simple. And even though I adjust my shot based on lane conditions, I still would say I'm mainly a heavy cranker that likes to rev the ball high and play deep.

By the way, I don't have a problem with any crankers who do muscle the ball. I've chosen not to anymore because it wasn't working well for me, for whatever reason. But I honestly feel I'm still cranking the stuffing out of it, just more relaxed and with earlier timing now.

Tommy Jones not a cranker? No way.

If you're not a cranker or a stroker then you're a "tweener". In other words you fall in somewhere between cranking and stroking.

Okay, this is just in the spirit of fun debate. Not dead horse beating.

The classic cranker shot still exists at league level all over the place. This is the Mark Roth (the original dominant cranker in the PBA) cupped wrist, hit up on the release, lofted ball.

This shot is virtually extinct in the PBA. While Tommy Jones and Patrick Allan get big revs and side roll their release is distinctly different than the classic crankers. (I think Dave Traver lost his card at the end of the year, his shot is pretty classic cranker if I recall.)

We could do away with the old classic "cranker" name and give it to Tommy Jones and his ilk but the old style still very much exists on the amateur level. You see it a lot when bowlers who start as thumbless bowlers start using their thumb. It is much easier to learn to put revs on the ball by cupping your wrist, planting your foot then twist/yank and loft, then it is to Master the modern power-rev release (I know 'cause I can crank but my mastery of the modern pro hi-rev release is pathetic in comparison.)

To me cranking is the application of muscular force in the release whereas power stroking is the whip effect from centrifugal force. Not to say a power stroker can't accelerate the whip but they are still applying the principles of centrifugal force as opposed to muscled torque.

Since I started this by accident, I will give my definition of a cranker. Well actually this is John Jowdy's definition. Let's start from the beginning.

Stroker: A stroker plays the lanes straight. By straight I mean no further left than the second arrow ( 10 board ). A stroker has a backswing that goes no higher than their shoulder. A stroker plays with their body squared to the lanes. A stroker plays with their shoulders closed to their target. A stroker doesn't muscle the ball and is very accurate. A stroker stays behind the ball for the most part. A stroker doesn't put many revs on the ball. The stroker timing has the foot and ball reaching the line at the same time. Examples of classic strokers:
Brian Voss
Norm Duke ( when he plays straight )
Mike Machuga ( when he plays straight )
Doug Kent
Parker Bohn III
Danny Wiseman ( though he does open his shoulders there is no high backswing )
Mike Scroggins
Walter Ray Williams ( though he does muscle the ball to get extra speed at the bottom of his swing )


Tweener or Power Stroker: A power stroker has the advantage of being able to hook the ball as much as a cranker or play the lanes straighter like a stroker. A power stroker opens his/her shoulders up to the lanes on the approach. By this I mean that their body is facing the opposing lane for a moment. A power stroker has a high backswing. A power stroker may use muscle to get the ball into the high backswing. This generates the power to get the ball to the breakpoint. At this point a power stroker disengages all muscles and lets the ball fall by its own power into a gracefully smooth release. The timing is slightly late. The shoulders realign before the release point.
Examples of power strokers:
Pete Weber ( I love his whole approach and release )
Norm Duke ( when he hooks the ball )
Mike Machuga ( when he's hooking the ball )
Mika Koivunemi
Patrick Allen
Tommy Delutz
Chris Barnes ( he's hard to put into a catagory, because he can rev it ).
Dave DeEntremont

Cranker: a cranker is a bowler who has very late timing. A cranker is a bowler who opens threir shoulders to the lane. Their body is facing the other lane in order to get their armswings to reach maximum height. They plant their slide foot to get maximum revs and leverage. They muscle the ball throughout the backswing to get maximum height on the backswing. They muscle the ball throughout their downswing to get maximum power in their shot. They usually put an obscene amount of revolutions on the ball. They can cover the whole lane and play left of the center arrow. They use power over accuracy to overcome the lane conditions. Some, not all, cup their wrist to generate hook.
examples of Crankers:
Tommy Jones
Michael Fagan ( though he is the smoothest cranker you'll ever see )
Rudy Revs
Mike Devaney
Jason Couch
Chris Johnson
And of course, the king of all crankers
Robert Smith ( though he and Fagan have been working hard on their straight game, because they both have learned that to win on tour, you need to know how to play it straight. And by straight I mean outside of 10. )

John Jowdy's definition.

I have also heard it simplified like this:
stroker-under 250 rpm ( under 14 revolutions )
Tweener- 275-400 rpm ( 15-18 revolutions )
Cranker- 400 rpm and above ( 20 and above revolutions )

or something like that.

I accept John Jowdy's definition. And by the way, my coach says I am still planting my foot, I still have late timing, and I'm still muscling the ball significantly--in spite of my belief that I had seriously reduced those factors. It's funny how you can be convinced of something until someone points out the truth. But my shot feels smoother and more relaxed, and my steps are slower, and my scores are better. I guess it just takes a lot more work to change styles than I thought, but I don't want to be a stroker at this point anyway and I've taken some of the strain off my body by relaxing my swing a bit. I guess I have to settle for the label of "cranker" applied to myself.

Anyway, good response, Smooth Stroker. Who on this forum would dispute John Jowdy's definition? Certainly not me.

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And by the way, my coach says I am still planting my foot, I still have late timing, and I'm still muscling the ball significantly--in spite of my belief that I had seriously reduced those factors.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">A lot of people who muscle the ball don't think that they do. I used to swear that I had a relaxed arm swing only to find out that I hold the ball and guide it down in the downswing. I also suffer from trying to help the ball a little to early (before the ball gets past my hip).

Try this some time:

When you set up, put all of the ball weight in your off hand and then make sure that every muscle in your bowling arm is relazed. Wiggle your shoulder and arm to make sure you're not holding any tension in them. You do have to keep a little firmness in your wrist though.

Then push the ball away with your off hand without using the muscles in your bowling arm. Then let it fall without using the muscles in your bowling arm. Let it swing while maintaing that loose arm and without engaging your bowling arm muscles. This whole time all you're really going to want to concentrate on is not using any arm muscles. Just let your arm swing dead.

It's probably going to feel pretty wierd, but it's going to give you a good idea of just how much you're still muscling the ball. It will also help to point out your timing issues.

But this is probably going to be a lot closer to a free armswing than you havee now. Now, the thing to add after this is a little use of muscle as you come through the ball, but that happens as the ball gets to your ankle. Doing this to early will cause bad things to happen.

More than likely though, you're going to not like the way this feels because there are a lot of other things that have to be happening as well, like timing, a body position that give you leverege, etc.

And the reason why a lot of beginning bowlers like to plant and chuck is because they can get those 180 results without having to work at it. Developing all the stuff I mentioned above takes time and work.

To me, a cranker is someone with a (usually) high backswing, although not always, who through late timing and muscling the release, creates a surplus of revs. Whilst less consistent than strokers or tweeners, we are hard to beat when playing in conditions which match the style due to the huge hook and power. We tend to end up with knee problems (due to the plant and pull) and damaged wrists and/or arms due to the punch at the end. That said, I've seen some very smooth bowlers who consider themselves crankers, and also some bowlers with small backswings who would call themselves crankers due to the huge force they put into it.

I would just say anybody can crank it or stoke it depending on the release and ball revs. I dont believe it has anything to do with the height of the backswing. Bob Vespi didnt have a high backswing at all and he was considered a cranker. Steve Hoskins was a cranker, who moved when the lanes made him. He would still crank the ball but was playing right up the 10 board. Basically put, IMO, if the release is non-muscled then I'd say you're strokin it, a little muscle is a tweener, and lots of muscle and power is a cranker. We will all have our own interpretations on the definition of these three.

I use to think I was a cranker, but with all the comments above, I feel im a power stroker, like pete, because my wrist is hardly cupped if any. I just simply drill my bowling balls strong to keep the ball path of crankers but without the wear and tear, which has made me more accurate too. something to think about..

OK the video is a cranker release. Slow it down and look at the elbow and how he pushes the ball in into the lane..
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/VCranker.Htm

Now these pics are of a power stroker.. Notice how the arm stays straight in the swing.. He is not pushing the ball to the lane..

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/tTiming.Htm

And Tommy Jones @ Pete Weber @ Patrik Allen are not Crankers. They are Power stroker players..


Richard

I don't know, Randy Pederson himself has called Tommy Jones and Michael Fagan both young crankers. Tommy Jones bends his arm during the downswing and uncoils the arm wrist and unloads at the bottom of the swing. He also has a very high backswing. His delivery actually looks a lot like the guy in your own video. I don't really care one way or the other, Patrick and Pete I agree with you, Tommy, I'm not so sure. What would you call Michael Fagan? Whatever he is, Tommy is too.