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#153840 - 08/03/11 10:51 AM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
BillinPhilly Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 262
A/S/L: 50 / M / Malvern, PA
Erin, let't take the case of a 730 average team bowling a 530 team:

Team 1
Bowler 1 - 161
Bowler 2 - 172
Bowler 3 - 189
Bowler 4 - 211
-----
733

Team 2
Bowler 1 - 105
Bowler 2 - 114
Bowler 3 - 136
Bowler 4 - 172
----
527

733-527 = 206 * .9 = 185
527 + 185 = 712
733 - 712 = 21

If Team 1 bowls their average exactly, Team 2 needs to be 21 pins over their averages to tie and 22 over to win. So yes, the lower average team is giving 22 pins a game. Not to mention the huge skill difference here, and the possibility that any of 3 guys on Team 1 isn't going throw a game ranging from 240 to 279, which nobody on team 2 is capable of doing. This is a total mismatch, despite the huge handicap. And there's nothing team 2 can do to avoid it.

_________________________
"Bowling should be played by bowlers, not physicists." - CoachJim

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#153843 - 08/03/11 11:59 AM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
BillinPhilly Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 262
A/S/L: 50 / M / Malvern, PA
Originally Posted By: ebon betta
Thats a farce right there......
Their team average is 506 while my teams average is 393.
This is not what I call a true high average team like I bowled last week which was 393 vs 580


Ebon, I'm assuming those are 3 person teams? We are in a 4 person league, and we are the 14th placed average team out of 18 teams in our league. We average 527. We have 5 teams in our league who average 653, 659, 684, 684, and 731 (with 4 people). Their top 3 each would be 572, 556, 549, 516, and 507. Our top 3 would be 421.
_________________________
"Bowling should be played by bowlers, not physicists." - CoachJim

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#153851 - 08/03/11 12:44 PM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: BillinPhilly]
B-Hammer Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 1818
A/S/L: 30/M/Bellingham WA
Originally Posted By: BillinPhilly
Erin, let't take the case of a 730 average team bowling a 530 team:

Team 1
Bowler 1 - 161
Bowler 2 - 172
Bowler 3 - 189
Bowler 4 - 211
-----
733

Team 2
Bowler 1 - 105
Bowler 2 - 114
Bowler 3 - 136
Bowler 4 - 172
----
527

733-527 = 206 * .9 = 185
527 + 185 = 712
733 - 712 = 21

If Team 1 bowls their average exactly, Team 2 needs to be 21 pins over their averages to tie and 22 over to win. So yes, the lower average team is giving 22 pins a game. Not to mention the huge skill difference here, and the possibility that any of 3 guys on Team 1 isn't going throw a game ranging from 240 to 279, which nobody on team 2 is capable of doing. This is a total mismatch, despite the huge handicap. And there's nothing team 2 can do to avoid it.



Read what MetGuy posted, your team is a low average plateaued average team. You need to find a 100% league, or see if your teammates can improve on a consistent basis. There are low average but improving teams out there doing just fine. Lost my summer league to one such team. That team started the year with house equipment, and bought their own ball s and shoes half way through the year, along with their improving skills it was their league to loose.

Question for you and Ebon since your in similar situations: Do your teammates care that they aren't winning? Or are they just after personal goals and/or a social night out? I work with my winter league teammates on their games all year to keep improving because we are a very competitive team, but I have bowled on a team with co-workers where they didn't care at all if they won, just wanted personal bests and that was good enough for them. It was a short summer league, with the smallest of prize funds.

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#153852 - 08/03/11 12:45 PM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
ebon betta Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 488
A/S/L: 54/m/nyc /ny2
Yeas, in summer league I am talking 3 man teams..in the winter league though the first Place team had a 793 average for 4 person. I joined and they had mebowling aone with 2 blind scores of 150 and a blind score of 130.
so I was looking at 155+430=585 vs 793 with 80% handicap...and remember those three blind score never shoot over average..

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#153853 - 08/03/11 01:25 PM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2103
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Ebon, have you considered joining a team that needs a man, or setting up a team of your own with better bowlers? Regardless of the handicap, you are going to have a lot of trouble winning anything with two blind scores.
_________________________
Career Highs: 300/759

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#153857 - 08/03/11 01:45 PM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
ebon betta Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 488
A/S/L: 54/m/nyc /ny2
that was last winter...

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#153861 - 08/03/11 02:24 PM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
Fin09 Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 1153
A/S/L: 51/M/Virginia Beach, VA
You're barking up the wrong tree. You're complaining that you can't consistently beat bowlers who are better than you. Averages are just that- averages. I've said that at least 2 or 3 times now. It changes from week to week, but you bowl above it about as much as you bowl below it. You handicap bowlers based on their averages, and unless you make a format of 100% of a large number, better bowlers are going to beat bowlers with lower averages the majority of the time. At 80%, you lose a pin to a higher average bowler for every 5 pins difference in average. At 85%, it's 1.5 pins every 10, and at 90%, a pin for every 10. Simple math. No need to argue. The bigger difference in average, the more you need to bowl over your average to win. Why should it not be that way? If you don't want to bowl against bowlers who are better than you, practice and take a few lessons. Quit calling better bowlers cheaters.
_________________________
Experience is something you get immediately after you need it most

Bowl up a Storm!

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#153864 - 08/03/11 03:36 PM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2103
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Originally Posted By: ebon betta
that was last winter...


But what about this winter? Do you have a team? Do they want to win/be competitive? Are you all willing to put in the work? Are you going to go to the league meeting and suggest changes? Are you going to take any advice you've been given over eight pages of this thread?

What about this winter...
_________________________
Career Highs: 300/759

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#153879 - 08/03/11 08:20 PM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Quote:
and remember those three blind score never shoot over average..


they also ALWAYS hit their average.

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#153892 - 08/04/11 09:55 AM Re: Handicap question about a misconception ??? [Re: ebon betta]
Fin09 Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 1153
A/S/L: 51/M/Virginia Beach, VA
Most leagues I've ever bowled, blind scores get their average minus 10, so if you're bowling consistently with 2 blind scores, sometimes 3 (legal lineup is 1 in that league? A little uncommon- not unheard of, but uncommon), you're digging yourself a hole that is awfully hard to climb out of.
Put 4 bowlers out there every night, and you'll win more. Guaranteed. You can't blame losing on the handicap format if you aren't fielding a full team every night.
_________________________
Experience is something you get immediately after you need it most

Bowl up a Storm!

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